D&D 5E Teleport /fly /misty step the bane of cool dungeon design is RAW in 5E

[KahlessNestor]

It's an extremely limited palette of classes. 2 fighter types, 2 rogue types, 1 monk and 1 barbarian. That's the extent of the choices.

I do agree that after Xanathar's (or if I delved a bit deeper into the Unearthed Arcana stuff) we'll have a bit more options.

Thing is, you've got no healing, at all, in that group. That's HURTS a lot. The lack of non-magical healing does make 5e somewhat tricky to use this way. But, mainly, it was the very serious lack of options that made me include some of the half caster classes like ranger and paladin.

You're forgetting some SCAG stuff. PDK, Battlerager, and Mastermind and Swashbuckler don't use magic.

As for healing, just ise the Healer feat as a setting rule so healer kits can work. And maybe refluff potions of healing into some herbal elixir. They already can be made with an hebalism kit, indicating they might not be all that magical.

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[Mort]

It's an extremely limited palette of classes. 2 fighter types, 2 rogue types, 1 monk and 1 barbarian. That's the extent of the choices.

I do agree that after Xanathar's (or if I delved a bit deeper into the Unearthed Arcana stuff) we'll have a bit more options.

Thing is, you've got no healing, at all, in that group. That's HURTS a lot. The lack of non-magical healing does make 5e somewhat tricky to use this way. But, mainly, it was the very serious lack of options that made me include some of the half caster classes like ranger and paladin.

A party without a cleric has been tricky in every edition except 4e (where clerics are certainly a boon, but not essential).

To compensate here, I'd either expand the use of hit dice recovery (depending on lethality of the campaign determine a faster recharge rate, going so far as all hit dice recovered after a short rest etc.)

Or, likely, I would just port a healing surges in. It's an elegant mechanic that was my favorite part of 4e.

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[Tony Vargas]

It's an extremely limited palette of classes. 2 fighter types, 2 rogue types, 1 monk and 1 barbarian. That's the extent of the choices.

It's not just that there's few choices (BM is fairly customizeable, you could do a number of quite different ones), or that the Monk doesn't count (Ki is explicitly magical in 5e), it's that they are such very limited choices in capability & contribution. No appreciable support or control, little beyond skills out of combat, and all high-DPR in combat.

I do agree that after Xanathar's (or if I delved a bit deeper into the Unearthed Arcana stuff) we'll have a bit more options.

And SCAG. But they're all sub-classes, and what even a gifted designer might do with a Fighter sub-class is very, very limited.

Thing is, you've got no healing, at all, in that group. That's HURTS a lot. The lack of non-magical healing does make 5e somewhat tricky to use this way. But, mainly, it was the very serious lack of options that made me include some of the half caster classes like ranger and paladin.

Non-magical healing is distinctly inadequate in combat - out of combat, HD are distinctly lacking, too, while, conversely, overnight healing might even be excessive (but is at least convenient - in a typical, mostly-caster party with ample magical healing, overnight healing just saves you from taking an extra full 24 hr cycle to blow most/all slots on healing, the recover them all, in the absence of magical healing, it's the only way to get back all your hps after an even slightly-challenging day, and two full 24 hr cycles are prettymuch required to get back all those HD that you'll burn through the next day).

A party without a cleric has been tricky in every edition except 4e (where clerics are certainly a boon, but not essential).

Even in 4e there was the generally-assumed, if not absolutely necessary, Leader Role. There were just a wider range of choices to fill it than the Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin of 5e.

Heh. Still need nonmagical Warlord!

5e desperately needs a Warlord to step into the support function in low/no- magic campaigns or just for players who don't particularly want to go for the existing support classes as such. It also needs more non-magical battlefield-control, like the eponymous reach-based fighter builds of 3e could provide, though preferably not quite that laser-focused.

What it doesn't need is even more sub-classes locking up even more of the very few things a non-magic-using PC might do, in 5e, which, sadly, is exactly what we're getting. Instead of breaking CS dice and maneuvers out of the BM sub-class, and making them into a sub-system with some of the flexibility and design space that spells have been heavily leveraged to build so many classes with, or even breaking out just the CS dice in silo'd sub-class-locked-down abilities, it sounds like the cavalier and other fighter sub-classes are just going to take narrower concepts and gate them behind sub-class.

 

[Valetudo]

Honestly I dont give a how long you have been playing or what awards you have won. And you still havent proven me wrong. Once again I never said anything about superheroes. What I said is that these powers are fine and if a dm cant make a cool dungeon because of them, its the dms fault. I would like to point out once again that I dont give one about your little awards. Thank you and good day.

 

[KahlessNestor]

It's not just that there's few choices (BM is fairly customizeable, you could do a number of quite different ones), or that the Monk doesn't count (Ki is explicitly magical in 5e), it's that they are such very limited choices in capability & contribution. No appreciable support or control, little beyond skills out of combat, and all high-DPR in combat.

And SCAG. But they're all sub-classes, and what even a gifted designer might do with a Fighter sub-class is very, very limited.

Non-magical healing is distinctly inadequate in combat - out of combat, HD are distinctly lacking, too, while, conversely, overnight healing might even be excessive (but is at least convenient - in a typical, mostly-caster party with ample magical healing, overnight healing just saves you from taking an extra full 24 hr cycle to blow most/all slots on healing, the recover them all, in the absence of magical healing, it's the only way to get back all your hps after an even slightly-challenging day, and two full 24 hr cycles are prettymuch required to get back all those HD that you'll burn through the next day).

Even in 4e there was the generally-assumed, if not absolutely necessary, Leader Role. There were just a wider range of choices to fill it than the Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin of 5e.

5e desperately needs a Warlord to step into the support function in low/no- magic campaigns or just for players who don't particularly want to go for the existing support classes as such. It also needs more non-magical battlefield-control, like the eponymous reach-based fighter builds of 3e could provide, though preferably not quite that laser-focused.

What it doesn't need is even more sub-classes locking up even more of the very few things a non-magic-using PC might do, in 5e, which, sadly, is exactly what we're getting. Instead of breaking CS dice and maneuvers out of the BM sub-class, and making them into a sub-system with some of the flexibility and design space that spells have been heavily leveraged to build so many classes with, or even breaking out just the CS dice in silo'd sub-class-locked-down abilities, it sounds like the cavalier and other fighter sub-classes are just going to take narrower concepts and gate them behind sub-class.

So you want to get rid of magic, and then complain about all the things you lose when you get rid of magic? I don't understand that.

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[Tony Vargas]

So you want to get rid of magic, and then complain about all the things you lose when you get rid of magic? I don't understand that.

Not /all the things/, just the 'game that's still playable' part. I suspect there'd be vanishingly little force damage meted out in a no-magic, medieval-level-tech game, for instance...

 

[Lanefan]

A party without a cleric has been tricky in every edition except 4e (where clerics are certainly a boon, but not essential).

To compensate here, I'd either expand the use of hit dice recovery (depending on lethality of the campaign determine a faster recharge rate, going so far as all hit dice recovered after a short rest etc.)

Or, likely, I would just port a healing surges in. It's an elegant mechanic that was my favorite part of 4e.

Plan C, of course, is to simply slow down the pace of adventuring and expect to spend more game time in the field to accomplish the same amount of goodly/heroic/murderous deeds.

But nobody ever seems to want to mention that one.

Honestly I dont give a [smiley] how long you have been playing or what awards you have won. And you still havent proven me wrong. Once again I never said anything about superheroes. What I said is that these powers are fine and if a dm cant make a cool dungeon because of them, its the dms fault. I would like to point out once again that I dont give one [smiley] about your little awards. Thank you and good day.

And what some people* are saying is that these powers are not fine, at least given the frequency with which they occur, and that making a cool dungeon that can still handle their existence without arbitrarily nerfing them is far more work than it should be.

* - not me so much; I've just learned to live with it.

And I haven't won any awards so you don't need to worry about whether you give any smileys about them or not.

Lanefan

 

[foeblade1]

umm why would you want to take away peoples abilities. Its what makes the game fun. If a guy can teleport and does it let him do it its part of what makes his character his character. If there is a door with a lock some one will find a way in. They will pick it, teleport in phase though it it melt the wall break the wall. The point is you want them to get in otherwise why lock the door. So who cares how they do it it just that they do it. Thats the game. its not you verse the players its you and the players playing the game. Your job is to give the players an environment where they can use all these cool abilities not have you say no. We have real life for that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Plan C, of course, is to simply slow down the pace of adventuring and expect to spend more game time in the field to accomplish the same amount of goodly/heroic/murderous deeds.

Overnight healing's fine enough for the pacing, the flexibility of support (all casters currently, so over the top), helps the party get through challenging encounters without so many random/pointless character deaths, and without resorting to too much abject cowardice or DM coddling...

 

[Hussar]

So you want to get rid of magic, and then complain about all the things you lose when you get rid of magic? I don't understand that.

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Because, at least in 1 edition, I could do exactly that without having to do any house ruling or any futzing about with the mechanics. I could run any module, any adventure, and not have to worry about it.

When the game is locked down to requiring magical healing, there's something of a problem. At least for me. I'd prefer if there was at least the option of not using it.

umm why would you want to take away peoples abilities. Its what makes the game fun. If a guy can teleport and does it let him do it its part of what makes his character his character. If there is a door with a lock some one will find a way in. They will pick it, teleport in phase though it it melt the wall break the wall. The point is you want them to get in otherwise why lock the door. So who cares how they do it it just that they do it. Thats the game. its not you verse the players its you and the players playing the game. Your job is to give the players an environment where they can use all these cool abilities not have you say no. We have real life for that.

And that's certainly one way to play. I can certainly get behind that as well. We play multiple campaigns, and some of them look exactly like what you're talking about. The issue that I have though, is that if you simply accept that D&D must have all these effects, then it gets harder and harder to use D&D to create more unique flavored campaigns.

IOW, if every group is Harry Potterverse, then every story you tell will be a Harry Potterverse story. I kinda want D&D to be a bit more robust than that.

At the end of the day, it's all about aesthetics. Sometimes it's great to see the paladin teleport on the back of the dragon. That's cool. Sometimes, though, I don't want that in the campaign. No different than some people don't like Paladins or monks or whatever else. It's simply a play thing.