D&D 5E Charisma- Good ability ... or OMNIVOROUS DESTROYER OF D&D?

[DEFCON 1]

Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I do contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes.

See, if you are truly large, then you should be using the Variant Rule for ability checks. That rule does not assign each skill to a specific ability, but rather you select the ability that is appropriate for the action and then add your proficiency bonus if a skill applies. As a large person containing multitudes, then a proper DM would allow you to use Strength for your check to intimidate me-- and then add the Intimidation skill to that.

This then reduces the number of times Big Charisma dominates the social pillar. Not enough to reduce Charisma's overall hold on it-- Charisma is skill king... but it does allow some of you horrible, horrible people to feel as though you don't HAVE to use Charisma all the time if you can figure out a way to use one of your other ability scores instead.

Hopefully your DM isn't a horrible, horrible person and uses the Variant Rule as all proper DMs should. *I* use the Variant Rule, because I'm not a horrible, horrible person. And also I realized long ago just how stupid Acrobatics is as a skill when it makes much more sense to just apply Athletics to Strength checks for swimming, jumping, and certain types of climbing, and applying Athletics to Dexterity checks to balance, swing on ropes, and other types of parkourish climbing. You don't need both skills... you only need Athletics. And then apply it to the proper ability check as needed.

You horrible person.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Irda Ranger]

I feel like both Wisdom and Charisma are poorly defined. Wisdom is sensory perception, willpower, and empathy? Like, why are those all the same thing?

Charisma used to be synonymous with Comeliness but is now morphing into a mix of confidence and force of personality. (So what's Wisdom's willpower then?) Also you charm a room of strangers and resists demonic possession with the same stat. Huh? I'd think that almost all adventurers are confident and have a forceful personality, just sort of as a consequence of being high level.

Also, lots of people seem to think that Charisma is just a measure of extroversion.

If I were re-inventing the Stats I'd probably split out, pair down, and focus the conception of each Stat by borrowing labels from some of the most important skills and the 3E Save categories, like this:

Athletics
Reflexes
Fortitude
Reason (Wizard)
Willpower (Warlock)
Insight (Cleric, Paladin, Sorcerer)
Perception
Charisma (Bards)

But I would clarify some rules too, like an Intimidation check can be made with any stat. Just being a 10th level anything can be scary; so whatever you're good at, scare people with it. I'd also make it clear that Charisma checks to make people like you is just about making a good impression while you're focused on the person; it's a magnetic personality thing. The effect fades as soon as you turn away. Real loyalty is earned.

Also I think the game lost something when we lost the Reaction Table that determined whether monsters were hostile, neutral, or friendly. It should be harder to change the results of that table than a pretty smile and a wink.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think you would have to redo the mental stats, something like:

Cunning
Methodical Intelligence (can't think of a better one-word name at this time)
Morale

Cunning handles sneaky stuff like persuasion, finding traps, etc.--good for rogues and warlocks
MI handles knowing stuff--good for rangers and wizards (bards become TAD with both cunning and MI)
Morale involves being scared or scary--good for paladins and barbarians (mystics become TAD with both MI and morale, and clerics vary by domain)

No hope for the sorcerer, except to become the con caster.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[DEFCON 1]

See, I just don't have charisma checks. I make players ROLEPLAY all of their situations, like the United States Constitution and Gygax intended.

A HA! YOU FELL INTO MY CUNNING TRAP!

You don't USE Charisma! Charisma use is merely a symptom of your your true hatred, which are paladins! If you don't use Charisma, then ipso facto, wishy-washy, e pleurbus unum Charisma CANNOT be used too much! You are merely using poor, poor Charisma as a backdoor into re-iterating your true hatred, which is paladins!

By gosh I bet you don't even know what bards, warlocks and sorcerers *are*, let alone care that their casting stat is Charisma. This is all about the paladin! The beginning and the ending, the start and the finish, the morning and the night, the froot and the loops! DESTROY THE PALADIN AND ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR! Huh? HUH?!? IS THAT IT? I SEE YOUR GAME, LOWKEY13! YOU DON'T FOOL ME! EVEN WITH AN 18 CHARISMA AND PROFICIENCY IN DECEPTION!

I shoulda seen through it. Right there in front of my eyes the whole time.

Horrible. Horrible people. The lot of you!

*sniff*

 

[Guest 6801328]

Sorcerers shouldn't be Cha, they should be Int. It's "street smarts" not "book smarts" but it's still smarts.

Then more DMs should implement the rule that you can key skills off of non-standard stats if you have a good reason for it. Use Strength to Intimidate, Intelligence to Persuade, Dexterity to Deceive, etc.

Oh, and make Holy Avengers easier to find. Paladins will spend more time hitting things and less time casting spells.

There. That should be enough fixes.

 

[Dausuul]

Strength:

• Primary for 2.5 classes (barbarian, paladin, 50% of fighters; also a smattering of rangers and warlocks)
• Minor saving throw
• Small secondary benefits (encumbrance, Athletics)

Dexterity:

• Primary for 3.5 classes (ranger, rogue, monk, 50% of fighters)
• Major saving throw
• Large secondary benefits (initiative, AC for anyone not proficient in heavy armor, Stealth, Acrobatics)

Constitution:

• Not primary for any class
• Major saving throw
• Large secondary benefits (hit points, Concentration)

Intelligence:

• Primary for 1 class (wizard)
• Minor saving throw
• Small secondary benefits (languages, Investigation, the "knowledge skills")

Wisdom:

• Primary for 2 classes (cleric, druid)
• Major saving throw
• Moderate secondary benefits (Perception*, Insight)

Charisma:

• Primary for 3 classes (bard, sorcerer, warlock)
• Minor saving throw
• Small secondary benefits (Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation)

Looking at this list, Dexterity is the king of stats, Intelligence is the goat, Constitution is useful but totally different from everything else, and the other three are decently balanced. I expect this comes as a surprise to roughly no one. Charisma is fine.

[SIZE=-2]*Perception is the uber-skill in D&D, so I'm counting this as a moderate benefit even though it's pretty much the only thing Wisdom does. You could make a case that this is small.[/SIZE]

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*