D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

[Arilyn]

Well, then that's just silly: about as silly as saying that D&D Elves aren't Tolkien Elves, or D&D humanoids aren't derived from the Snaga/Uruk/Urak-Hai complex of Goblins/Ors in Tolkien.

I think the original point some of us were raising has been lost. The question is not could DnD exist without Tolkien, but would it? Of course you could have DnD without Tolkien ever having existed. Gygax had lots of material to draw on, and had a great interest in myth, folklore and fantasy. Nobody is saying Tolkien invented fantasy.

Gygax created the fantasy supplement to Chainmail because he noticed there was a great interest in fantasy, especially Tolkien. He thought it would be a draw. There was a great interest in fantasy because Tolkien had popularized the genre in the 70s. Without Tolkien, fantasy would have remained obscure. So the question is, would Gygax have bothered with the fantasy supplement under these conditions? Gygax would have been intersected, of course. He was drawn to the genre without Tolkien, but for most people, at the time, Tolkien was their introduction. So, to make the point again, would Gygax have bothered creating the fantasy supplement if there wasn't a great interest? Wargamers, after all, have not historically(excuse the pun), been that drawn to fiction in their games. Tolkien 's popularity, however, made it possible for Gygax to drum up enough interest in his fantasy version. Later, of course, it became DnD. Any broken link in the chain could have resulted in DnD not being written.

It's an interesting question. We'll never know for sure unless someone has a time machine and removes Tolkien from the picture, which would be terrible.

Eventually, we would have role playing games, but who knows what form they would have initially taken and when they would have first been published.

 

[Onussen]

D&D would exist absent Tolkien's influences. There are many more influences than just the good professor. I do not get the idea that Dave Arneson, who started the fantasy RPG genre ( and took something from Gygax's and Perrin's Chainmail game) had a whole lot of interest in Tolkien. Someone who knows more about Arneson can comment to this.

Those of you who are old enough ought to remember that there was a resurgence in the interest in Professor Tolkien's books in the late '60s and early '70's. Heck, for example, even Led Zeppelin referenced his writings ( "Ramble On", in 1969.) It was part of the zeitgeist at the time. I suspect that if D&D were formulated today, it would have a high GoT influence to it.

Anyway, to the original question: I'm certain that it is impossible to identify just how many parts of D&D come from Tolkien. His influences pervade the game, as do the influences of Jack Vance, and Robert Howard, and Fritz Leiber, and Poul Anderson, to name the major influences of which I am aware. Everything is intertwined, and ultimately comes from the same sources of Inspiration, Western European Folk-lore, mainly Germanic (including Scandinavian).

 

[Parmandur]

Incorrect. I asserted that.

I don't know that, of course, and I could very well be wrong. But I seriously wonder if there would have been enough interest in the genre for D&D to have taken off the first time. Maybe Gygax & Co. would have stuck with miniature wargaming. Maybe they still would have created D&D, but without Tolkien it would have both looked very different and wouldn't have had as large of a "primed" audience, so maybe it wouldn't have become the phenomenon that it was.

I suspect we still would have roleplaying games by now, but what would they look like if D&D hadn't been the dominant one back in the 80's, and therefore be such a strong influence on the games of today? Maybe "D&D" would look a lot more like Arthurian stories, or Conan, or Game of Thrones: all human heroes, very little magic (or used for evil).

Gritty simulation of Napoleonic times.

Really impossible to say: alternate history is a fraught enterprise.

 

[Parmandur]

I think the original point some of us were raising has been lost. The question is not could DnD exist without Tolkien, but would it? Of course you could have DnD without Tolkien ever having existed. Gygax had lots of material to draw on, and had a great interest in myth, folklore and fantasy. Nobody is saying Tolkien invented fantasy.

Gygax created the fantasy supplement to Chainmail because he noticed there was a great interest in fantasy, especially Tolkien. He thought it would be a draw. There was a great interest in fantasy because Tolkien had popularized the genre in the 70s. Without Tolkien, fantasy would have remained obscure. So the question is, would Gygax have bothered with the fantasy supplement under these conditions? Gygax would have been intersected, of course. He was drawn to the genre without Tolkien, but for most people, at the time, Tolkien was their introduction. So, to make the point again, would Gygax have bothered creating the fantasy supplement if there wasn't a great interest? Wargamers, after all, have not historically(excuse the pun), been that drawn to fiction in their games. Tolkien 's popularity, however, made it possible for Gygax to drum up enough interest in his fantasy version. Later, of course, it became DnD. Any broken link in the chain could have resulted in DnD not being written.

It's an interesting question. We'll never know for sure unless someone has a time machine and removes Tolkien from the picture, which would be terrible.

Eventually, we would have role playing games, but who knows what form they would have initially taken and when they would have first been published.

Arneson's group had already made the quantum leap from wargaming to role-playing in a hard-boiled Napoleonic setting. Chainmail plus the zeitgeist of 60's fantasy (including Tolkien) contributed to the next step: however, I think non-literary influences often get overlooked in these discussions, such as role-playing exercises being done in Psych classes in college. There were a lot of ingredients in the gumbo, and hard to say which were essential.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Without the influence from Tolkien'a work on the creation of the game, D&D would have probably had a different name, Dungeons is Moria and Dragons is Smaug, and without the Tolkien elements for fantasy fiction readers to recognize, it may have stayed a much more niche game and may have even died out. Where would the desire for fantasy roleplaying have gone without D&D? To other games of the time like Runequest or Chivalry & Sorcery? Maybe we would all be running around in Tekumel or Glorantha, both created at about the same time as D&D, instead of Greyhawk or the Realms? Or would we have stuck with the sci-fi side of RPGs and seen Traveller become a bigger game than it has been in it's history?

 

[Hriston]

I think everyone's forgetting about this: http://playingattheworld.blogspot.com/2016/01/a-precursor-to-chainmail-fantasy.html.

 

[Olive]

By the way, this story prominently features an half-elven character. And serves as a pre-Tolkien example of elves as timeless, beautiful creatures with an affinity for magic and nature.

Interesting! I've never read Dunsany but I know Tolkien read and respected him and Gygax had him in Appendix N.

 

[Yaarel]

Elf as a mundane race with Dexterity for archery.

Pure Tolkien.

Tolkien Elf resembles neither Norse animism (solar sky spirit) nor British folklore (nocturnal land spirit). In reallife traditions, the Elf is known for personifying magic, fate, success, item creation, charm and supernatural beauty.

Tolkien Elf also disresembles Shakespeare Fairy (childlike spirit).

 

[Yaarel]

The metal ‘Mithril’ is both officially D&D and a made-up word that Tolkien invented.

 

[Lanefan]

One thing to keep in mind is that by the time the 1e DMG and its legendary Appendix N came out TSR was already getting legal heat about using Tolkein-ic terms etc. e.g. "Hobbit", and the designers were bailing as hard as they could by downplaying any Tolkein influence at every opportunity and saying, in effect, "No, no - that idea came from [this other non-Tolkein source]." whether in fact true or not.