D&D 5E Which parts of D&D came from Tolkien?

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah, again, the question isn't whether he invented these ideas but whether they would have made it into D&D without his influence.

Considering that the creators of D&D were very familiar with all of these same myths that Tolkien used, the answer is a resounding yes. Gygax et al included monsters and myth from all over the world, why would they not have also included things like rocs, or named magic swords, and all the rest if Tolkien didn't exist? Gygax and Tolkien pulled from the same source material. So obviously if Tolkien never existed, many of those things would still be in D&D. There's no question.

Sorry, to be pedantic, but your examples are absurd.

Not they aren't. Look at some of the posts above.

The 'Roc' exists as a separate entry in the D&D monster manual. That in itself should be sufficient to address your point. .

What is absurd is you making an assumption of what I'm responding to when you are incorrect. This thread is "what parts of D&D came from Tolkien", and people have listed things like flying eagles, named magic weapons, were-bears, etc. And my answer was that those things didn't come from Tolkien because Tolkien took them from other sources. Almost exactly (like giant eagles carrying away stranded people from certain danger).

So if D&D and Tolkien pulled from the same source (mythology and folklore), that means D&D didn't pull all those things from Tolkien. To say those things wouldn't exist without Tolkien is like saying you can't have a vampire book without pulling from Anne Rice. The lore of the vampire existed long before Anne Rice, just like the lore about giant eagles, named magic swords, etc all existed as reference material long before Tolkien.

 

[lowkey13]

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[lowkey13]

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[Sacrosanct]

At a certain point, you can't say that something is "from" Tolkien just because it exists in both Tolkien and D&D- .

I'm seeing a whole lot of this. And the reason why is like I commented about earlier--it's what people are familiar with. More people are familiar with Tolkien, and may have had their first exposure to fantasy being Tolkien, so that's what they assume without realizing that many of the things Tolkien wrote about were pulled almost word from word from another source. Like the aforementioned eagles. I mean, in Arabian myth they are part of a story where they come and rescue sailors in danger by carrying them away. So not only did Tolkien borrow from that source and not create them himself, he didn't even really change the story of them lol.

Maybe because I'm older (not old!), my first experiences to fantasy movies were the Harryhausen movies (Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts, etc) and animated films like Phantom Tollbooth (1970), so I can say without a doubt that the rise of fantasy and even role playing games would be there if Tolkien never existed. I remember when the animated The Hobbit came out, and it brought Tolkien and high fantasy to the forefront right there. Largely because it was a great film by Rankin. Prior to that, both in literary and film media, Tolkien's high fantasy wasn't the most popular. It was sword and sorcery that was the most popular. Go back and look at the stories in Strange Tales and other fantasy magazines of the 60s and 70s. Full of sword and sorcery. Not so much high fantasy. I am NOT saying Tolkien wasn't famous or respected. I'm saying that he wasn't any more popular than Robert E Howard or Lieber prior to the late 70s when the films came out. The material of the time seems to support that.

 

[Morrus]

I don't completely agree. You can certainly adapt something directly from Tolkien, even if he adapted it from elsewhere. Most things stand on the shoulders of those before them. I can adapt stuff from Star Wars, even though I know Star Wars adapted stuff from a Kurosawa film.

 

[Sacrosanct]

In retrospect, maybe it's a generational thing. For example, when I think of the influences in my D&D games going back the past 35 or so years, I'd say Tolkien barely makes the top 5. Probably:

Harryhausen films (Sinbad, Jason)
Conan (both film and books)
Lloyd Alexander (Prydain series)
Ralph Baskshi (Wizards and Fire & Ice)
Rankin (Last Unicorn, Flight of the Dragons, and the LoTR movies)

Then a bunch of others, like Terry Brooks, David Eddings, Clash of the Titans (1981), Beastmaster, heck pretty much every cheesy sword and sorcery movie from the 80s lol.

So if someone came in later, after the resurgence of Tolkien's popularity and high fantasy in general in the late 70s, I can see where people would think he is the clear top influence.

 

[hejtmane]

I'm seeing a whole lot of this. And the reason why is like I commented about earlier--it's what people are familiar with. More people are familiar with Tolkien, and may have had their first exposure to fantasy being Tolkien, so that's what they assume without realizing that many of the things Tolkien wrote about were pulled almost word from word from another source. Like the aforementioned eagles. I mean, in Arabian myth they are part of a story where they come and rescue sailors in danger by carrying them away. So not only did Tolkien borrow from that source and not create them himself, he didn't even really change the story of them lol.

Maybe because I'm older (not old!), my first experiences to fantasy movies were the Harryhausen movies (Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts, etc) and animated films like Phantom Tollbooth (1970), so I can say without a doubt that the rise of fantasy and even role playing games would be there if Tolkien never existed. I remember when the animated The Hobbit came out, and it brought Tolkien and high fantasy to the forefront right there. Largely because it was a great film by Rankin. Prior to that, both in literary and film media, Tolkien's high fantasy wasn't the most popular. It was sword and sorcery that was the most popular. Go back and look at the stories in Strange Tales and other fantasy magazines of the 60s and 70s. Full of sword and sorcery. Not so much high fantasy. I am NOT saying Tolkien wasn't famous or respected. I'm saying that he wasn't any more popular than Robert E Howard or Lieber prior to the late 70s when the films came out. The material of the time seems to support that.

I know I watched all those sinbad movies as a Kid way before I read Tolkien in fact I did not read Tolkien until way into my Fantasy reading. I had read a ton of other authors before him maybe thats why I am not a big fan he was all right but I do not get all the love he gets. Funny you talk about this "Strange Tales and other fantasy magazines of the 60s and 70s". I posted about Black Razor and Elric which was first published in 61 in one of those Exact Magazines.

 

[lowkey13]

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[Arilyn]

I don't completely agree. You can certainly adapt something directly from Tolkien, even if he adapted it from elsewhere. Most things stand on the shoulders of those before them. I can adapt stuff from Star Wars, even though I know Star Wars adapted stuff from a Kurosawa film.

Yes, and Gygax was definitely borrowing heavily from Tolkien in the fantasy supplement in Chainmail. The popularity of Tolkien' s books inspired him to create fantasy war gaming. If you look in that supplement it is full of Tolkien.

 

[lowkey13]

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