D&D 5E OrcPub is Closing Down

[DM Howard]

Y'know what? If they had already bought the product one or more times, I wouldn't get all choked up over their limited "illegitimate" use of my IP.

Bold emphasis, mine. This is the real issue here, people believe that because they buy a product in one format that they should have access to it in all formats, even when those formats have both extra features and production costs that are exclusive from each other.

WotC published the D&D Player's Handbook

Fantasy Grounds licensed the right to take that data and integrate it into their virtual tabletop product. Additional production costs beyond the WotC's Player's Handbook and additional features. A different product.

Curse licensed the right to take that data and make a searchable database, character creator, content sharing platform, and campaign manager. Additional production costs and additional features. A different product from the first two.

I don't expect to be able to play my spiffy new PC game on my Xbox just because I bought it on Steam, and the same principle applies here.

OrcPub was illegal, he was soliciting funds for a service whose benefits revolved around copyrighted material and was in conflict with the brand as a whole.

I would, of course, do what I needed to do to prevent losing my trademark or copyright protection, but I certainly wouldn't be pretending that it was some kind of moral outrage.

I HIGHLY doubt that you would not seek legal recourse in a situation such as this; where an entity is making use of your material (stealing it) without entering into a license agreement with you, directly affects the success of your licensees and potentially endangers the solidity of your brand. If you wouldn't then I hope you don't own a business that relies on any sort of cohesive brand identity or recognition.

I couldn't muster much sanctimonious indignation against the people who were paying customers, which is what we're talking about here. These are the folks who have made 5e quite the profitable venture, after all.

Those customers did not pay a licensee, and thus WotC, to use that copyrighted material. The customers were using an illegal product, let's not split hairs, OrcPub was looking for financial gain for their illlagal product.

But then, I would have launched 5e with some kind of digital strategy in mind instead of waiting a few years in, so I would be in a better position to bundle multiple formats of the same damn book.

I can agree with you here, but I can see why they were weary in doing so, as it was open knowledge that Hasbro was pretty close to taking D&D out back with the corporate shotgun if the brand did not perform. I wish there had been a cohesive plan, but hindsight is always 20/20.

If an illegal product like OrcPub sprang into being to serve my customers in a way I wasn't, I think I'd be likely to offer the guy a job. I wouldn't expect my paying customers to repurchase all of their books in a digital format just to have access to a complete character creation tool.

Fixed the bold part for you.

So, you're saying that I shouldn't have to pay my dentist because I already paid my primary care physician? I mean they are both doctor's so they provide the same products and services to me? Oh wait. . .

But, I know... you believe that we should carefully limit our use of our purchased D&D materials to exactly what WotC expressly grants us.

I don't believe anyone is saying that, but everyone needs to be paid for the work they do. It is really as simple as that.

If they want to charge us for everything all over again, well... you reckon we ought to just pay up. To say that Wizards looks like they're trying to shaft us, and that they should have maybe taken a lesson from Paizo... that's just entitled whining, right?

Yes, because you are buying different products.

Yeah, I have plenty of perspective. I just don't share yours.

Civil discourse is the bomb dot com, yo!

 

[epithet]

... people believe that because they buy a product in one format that they should have access to it in all formats, even when those formats have both extra features and production costs that are exclusive from each other.
...
OrcPub was illegal, he was soliciting funds for a service whose benefits revolved around copyrighted material and was in conflict with the brand as a whole.

I HIGHLY doubt that you would not seek legal recourse in a situation such as this; where an entity is making use of your material (stealing it) without entering into a license agreement with you, directly affects the success of your licensees and potentially endangers the solidity of your brand. If you wouldn't then I hope you don't own a business that relies on any sort of cohesive brand identity or recognition.
...
... but everyone needs to be paid for the work they do. It is really as simple as that. ...

I think I have been consistent in saying that WotC had no choice but to shut OrcPub down once he started asking for money. I would obviously demand that he cease and desist, and that any money he received be remunerated to me. I'm a lawyer, after all. We do that. My main interest, however, would be in preserving my intellectual property rights, because (broadly speaking) you lose them if you don't enforce them. I think we are all on the same page on that, possibly excepting one or two among us who seem to feel that this is more of a moral issue than a legal issue.

Where we differ is on whether a digital version of a product is a different product. In some ways it is, in others it is not. I think the real crux is the last line of yours that I quoted, though. Everyone needs to be paid for the work they do (unless they willingly do it for free.) Wizards of the Coast wrote a book, a printer bound it into a hardcover, SmiteWorks coded a module for Fantasy Grounds, and Curse coded an online database. Everyone needs to be paid for their work, but apparently Wizards needs to be paid thrice over. A bundle would presumably let everyone be paid once, leading to customer goodwill. It's like buying a blu ray disc that comes with a DVD and an online digital copy from iTunes.

Now, no one is saying that a movie studio has to provide a bundle pack. In fact, they sometimes don't. People who want a bundle and can't find one will be annoyed. People who want to load the movie on their device but can't get the digital copy from iTunes will rip one from the disc, or just download it illegally. I'm not saying it's justified, but it is inevitable. If you want to effectively discourage piracy, the first thing you need to do is make sure that people can buy your product in the format they want to buy it in. But that's not really applicable to the OrcPub situation, because OrcPub wasn't pirating a WotC product. As I understand it, OrcPub was using trademarked D&D terms without ever reproducing copyrighted text (I never really poked around the site to see, so I might be mistaken about that.)

My point is that there is clearly a demand for a character generator (and not one limited to the SRD races and classes) that does not require the repurchase of the D&D books. This is actually pretty reasonable, since a simple character generator like the one OrcPub offered is by no means a replacement for the PHB. People who were keen to use OrcPub weren't necessarily interested in having online access to the PHB in all its digital glory, they just wanted (I believe) a tool that made it more convenient to put together a character sheet using the Player's Handbook they have on the shelf. DDB offers an incomplete free version, with the option to complete it by repurchasing the entire digital book. What's missing is the ability to access a complete character building tool that doesn't include the full text of the relevant books in all of their hyperlinked glory.

The interesting question to me--and this is not my area of practice, so I don't know the answer--is how much unlicensed copyrighted content could be included in a free character builder tool under Fair Use. Wizards seems to be taking the official position of "none whatsoever," but that doesn't seem to be a position they could enforce under the law.

Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling now. Hooray for civil discourse.

 

[Rellott]

OrcPub wasn't pirating a WotC product. As I understand it, OrcPub was using trademarked D&D terms without ever reproducing copyrighted text (I never really poked around the site to see, so I might be mistaken about that.)

My point is that there is clearly a demand for a character generator (and not one limited to the SRD races and classes) that does not require the repurchase of the D&D books. This is actually pretty reasonable, since a simple character generator like the one OrcPub offered is by no means a replacement for the PHB. People who were keen to use OrcPub weren't necessarily interested in having online access to the PHB in all its digital glory, they just wanted (I believe) a tool that made it more convenient to put together a character sheet using the Player's Handbook they have on the shelf. DDB offers an incomplete free version, with the option to complete it by repurchasing the entire digital book. What's missing is the ability to access a complete character building tool that doesn't include the full text of the relevant books in all of their hyperlinked glory.

OrcPub was using some slightly reworded, mechanics-lite descriptions of features and rules items, with identical feature names. In my opinion it might have been a little too close to the source material to warrant fair use, but I’m not a lawyer and I think there are arguments that could be made on either side. OrcPub caved because in the grand scheme of things he wasn’t making nearly enough money to fight that battle.

To be fair, DDB does have the option to buy individual archetypes... for $1.99 each (same cost as an individual spell, feat, or background). But by the time you’ve bought a couple of them, you might as well just buy the whole book at that price.

 

[CapnZapp]

Agreed, as they are legally and morally obligated to do.

Maybe so, but they're not in this thread.

You are. And you are neither morally nor legally obligated to police these forums for them.

I'd leave that to them and focus on fun gaming and DM prep using any and every tool at my disposal if I were you. [emoji4]

Thanks.



Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[LordEntrails]

[MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION],
You lay out your opinion pretty well. And I appreciate the civility of your discourse.

I think the core difference shaping your opinion differently from mine is that;
- You believe the majority of OrcPub users had already purchased the PHB in one or more formats. I don't, I suspect a majority of them have not bought an official copy of the PHB in any format. Neither of us have evidence either way. *shrugs*

We both agree that theft is illegal. And that WotC has made business decisions neither of us would make, and that we would do things differently based upon we know. But shouldn't we also accept that we do not know what the executives of WotC know, and we do not know their priorities or constraints on the decisions they make. We are not fully informed, but then again, neither is anyone (even the WotC execs).

You are. And you are neither morally nor legally obligated to police these forums for them.

I'd leave that to them and focus on fun gaming and DM prep using any and every tool at my disposal if I were you.

Thanks for once more coming as close as possible to personally insulting me without quite saying it. These innuendos of your add nothing to the value of these forums. I hope you stop them.

 

[Rellott]

We both agree that theft is illegal. And that WotC has made business decisions neither of us would make, and that we would do things differently based upon we know. But shouldn't we also accept that we do not know what the executives of WotC know, and we do not know their priorities or constraints on the decisions they make. We are not fully informed, but then again, neither is anyone (even the WotC execs).

I think they could save a lot of future anger and heartbreak, and maybe even build some goodwill in the community, if they would just be more open about what they’re planning and what assumptions and knowledge they’re working with. Might have some initial backlash as people find things they don’t like, but they already get backlash at pretty much every reveal.

But until they do reveal all their behind the scenes thoughts, all we can do is speculate and make the most informed arguments we can.

 

[epithet]

... You believe the majority of OrcPub users had already purchased the PHB in one or more formats. I don't, I suspect a majority of them have not bought an official copy of the PHB in any format. Neither of us have evidence either way. *shrugs* ...

You may very well be correct in your suspicion, although the sales numbers for 5e suggest that a whole lot of people have bought (and continue to buy) the books. I don't think the OrcPub site comes anywhere near serving as a replacement for a PHB, though, so I'm not certain how much that would sway my opinion. If someone who doesn't own a PHB makes a character using an online tool like that (one which doesn't give you the rest of the PHB content) then to play you'll need either the basic rules pdf and maybe the SRD or Unearthed Arcana pdfs, or (and I'm not trying to say this is ok) a pirate scan. The thing is, that person playing without a (legitimate) PHB has made that choice already, and their access to a free character generator tool (whether licensed, piratical, or in some in-between grey area of maybe-fair use) probably isn't going to change their mind. Actually playing D&D, though, might.

I think as a community, the RPG crowd is pretty fair minded. Since playing the game is a social activity, I think there will be a fair amount of peer pressure on a player to go ahead and pick up the book and stop being a freeloader. For that matter, if someone in your group can't afford the PHB and is trying to make do with the basic pdf, there's a decent chance you or someone else in your group will buy one for him or her, right? I mean, you're probably already feeding him/her on game night. My point is that stuff like a free and complete character creation tool will ultimately grow the paying customer base - that's why I think it would be a good business decision. Disregarding the demand for that tool and simply deploying a flock of my colleagues to shut down the ones the crop up... that's going to have the opposite effect, in my opinion.

On my shelf, I have a little statue that a friend gave me when I graduated from law school. It has a little slogan on the base: "For friends, everything. For strangers, nothing. For enemies, the law." It's a silly thing, but it makes a point... if you hire me to go after someone who isn't your enemy, they probably will be once the courts and I are done with them. I really think WotC should keep in mind that the people who make and use these online tools are, when it comes down to it, D&D fans and (I believe) customers, future and repeat customers, and potential customers. There is no doubt that they've got to protect their IP, and no doubt that they should come down vigorously upon anyone who tries to make money off their IP without licensing it. I think they should also be paying attention for opportunities to improve the services they offer to promote product sales, is all I'm sayin'.

 

[LordEntrails]

You may very well be correct in your suspicion, although the sales numbers for 5e suggest that a whole lot of people have bought (and continue to buy) the books. I don't think the OrcPub site comes anywhere near serving as a replacement for a PHB, though, so I'm not certain how much that would sway my opinion. If someone who doesn't own a PHB makes a character using an online tool like that (one which doesn't give you the rest of the PHB content) then to play you'll need either the basic rules pdf and maybe the SRD or Unearthed Arcana pdfs, or (and I'm not trying to say this is ok) a pirate scan. The thing is, that person playing without a (legitimate) PHB has made that choice already, and their access to a free character generator tool (whether licensed, piratical, or in some in-between grey area of maybe-fair use) probably isn't going to change their mind. Actually playing D&D, though, might.

Maybe my thoughts on this aren't fair to the community. It's kind of interesting how I see the overall RPG community so different that the community I RPG with (now). As a professional myself, those I generally game with are other professionals and spending a few hundred dollars on a hobby that is going to get me thousands of hours of entertainment isn't a problem. But when I tend to go to stores to play (I used to DM Encounters every week) it was quite common to see PDFs and photocopies of books and such by players always talking about the latest online resource where they could get things for free.

As I said, probably not a fair assumption on my part to make, but at least one fueled by some experience.

... I think they should also be paying attention for opportunities to improve the services they offer to promote product sales, is all I'm sayin'.

Absolutely. I think they have tried (free basic rules and the 5E SRD), but they are also driven by 'classic' opinions on such things. I think they are risk adverse, to the detriment of customer friendliness.

 

[HomegrownHydra]

Maybe so, but they're not in this thread.

You are. And you are neither morally nor legally obligated to police these forums for them.

You are neither morally or legally obligated to police the opinions stated in this forum.

I'd leave that to them and focus on fun gaming and DM prep using any and every tool at my disposal if I were you.

Your suggestion is to violate the law anytime it benefits them and they think they can get way with it. I would hope no one would accept such amoral "advice".

 

[Severite]

You are neither morally or legally obligated to police the opinions stated in this forum.
Your suggestion is to violate the law anytime it benefits them and they think they can get way with it. I would hope no one would accept such amoral "advice".

I will not claim to speak for the good Captain, however; I believe you are grossly mischaracterizing his text.

In any case, what they should have done was scooped up his superior product, and sold it for a small fee of about 9.99. Period. I have already purchased every book that they have published. Reading through this thread I am beginning to regret it. Expecting me to repurchase the players handbook in order to use a character builder, that is primarily going to be used to get new players into their game....especially, as it would be trivially easy to code it so that the actual data is still kept in the player's handbook. Allow me to be absolutely clear, I will not buy the player's handbook again, as I already own three hard copies, so with their gross mishandling of the situation, now, instead of scooping up or creating their own reasonable tools, and me paying them a nominal fee for the privilege, I will pay them nothing, and will either create my own for personal use, or will use one where I can input my own parameters, again, for fair use. And no, I will not run a foul of any bobbies, as I won't be providing it to others. I doubt that my stance is uncommon.