D&D 5E Warlock group think

[abirdcall]

When I see people post about Warlocks it usually comes in 1 of 3 flavours:

1) We get long rests every couple of encounters and rarely short rest and my Warlock sucks

2) Warlock needs to use Hex and Agonizing Blast but also they're under powered and boring because they don't get to do much

3) I love Warlocks because I can get up to so many shenanigans in social interaction and exploration while keeping up in combat.

#1 is true for all non-long rest classes. The problem isn't the Warlock. That is pretty well understood.

#2 is assumed to be common knowledge. I contend that Hex and Agonizing Blast aren't always such good ideas.

Hex after level 5 just isn't worth the spell slot or the concentration. Warlock's big advantage is having more high level slots than other spellcasters. Using it on Hex is a waste. It also uses up your concentration and as a concentration spell it is prone to fail.

The other issue with Hex is that it doesn't really fill a need. Either the encounter is fairly minor and spells should be saved in favour of cantrips, or the encounter is harder and a big spell is needed to turn the tide. Hex only really shines in a series of small encounters (such as a relentless zombie incursion), and those are pretty rare in my experience.

Agonizing Blast isn't really worth it before 5th level. With only 1 attack and 2 invocation slots it doesn't add much to the character. Something like Misty Visions is much more powerful. A good 1st level spell at will is huge, especially early in the game. The damage Agonizing Blast adds is also not that much when the entire party is factored in. Sustained damage is the specialty of the martial characters.

Warlocks have good utility powers for exploration and social interaction and they are able to bring out the big guns when needed for large encounters.

An average of 6 max level spell slots per long rest is very powerful. That becomes less so when they are used on Hex. For those who find simply using cantrips over and over again boring, try something else.

Side note; Blade Pact is decent by itself. I would say it is probably the least powerful of the pacts but it works. I think the mistake with it is planning on the character to be using the weapon all of the time. The weapon is a great back up to Eldritch Blast as it is a ranged attack.

tl;dr I'm in the #3 camp. I think Warlocks are great and along with Monk, the Warlock is my favourite designed class in 5e.

 

[Blue]

I'm not sure I understand your comments about using hex you are level 5. Once you've reached 5th level you cast it once using your 3rd level slot and it will last 8 hours. Leaving you with free slots for most of the day to do all of the things you are talking about, AND still have hex up. Concentration DCs are generally easy, though there are times you want to drop it for a different spell with Concentration. Not a big deal, but doesn't prevent you from taking advantage of a single casting lasting many fights, including over short rests where you regain slots.

"Sustained damage is the specialty of martial characters" seems to ignore that the Warlock is not built on the chassis of any other caster in 5e and is actually good at it.

"Agonizing Blast isn't really worth it before 5th" - I can see this mistake if your impression that sustained damage isn't something casters do. But when a weapon wielder at range is doing d8+ability, and you do d10 (EB) +d6 (Hex) + ability and way out-damage them, I have to think that's a useful thing to do at that level range - do the most sustained damage of your party. Even without Hex you out-damage them, though a two-hander who has to go into melee can do equal or do more without it - pull it out only when you think it's appropriate. If you have a feature like Dark One's Blessing that triggers when you drop an opponent, then it's even more useful. Though I agree that there's lots of great invocation and there's an opportunity cost in picking any of them.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

+1

Just b/c EB+AB is great as a filler for when you're not doing something more interesting doesn't mean you don't get to do more interesting things sometimes. And when you do, you can have lots of fun doing them, knowing you've always got that safety net to fall back on.

I'm in the #3 camp with you.

 

[abirdcall]

Once you've reached 5th level you cast it once using your 3rd level slot and it will last 8 hours.

I contend that if it lasts you 8 hours then you weren't in any real danger anyway so it doesn't really matter what spells you were casting. Hex is one of those things that is only good when you didn't need it anyway.

I should add that I think a lot of the group think also involves the assumption both that the Warlock won't be hit and also won't have enemies in melee. Both Hex and Eldritch Blast become far less effective when enemies attack the soft ranged attacker.

"Agonizing Blast isn't really worth it before 5th" - I can see this mistake if your impression that sustained damage isn't something casters do.

It's not that Agonizing Blast is bad, it's that with only 2 invocations there are better things to do.

I would much rather have a ritual book and at will silent image than Agonizing Blast for example.

Once 5th level comes around and I have 3 invocations and I'm getting +4 damage for 2 attacks, well that's pretty good. Though the cantrip is still not going to turn the tide of a difficult fight, Hex or no Hex.

 

[abirdcall]

I should also add that if you are having fun with using Hex and Agonizing Blast then more power to you.

This is more of a reply to people who say the Warlock is under powered or lacking options. I've heard the complaint "all I can do is spam Eldritch Blast and it sucks" many times.

 

[Iry]

I agree that 5th Level is a great level to pick up Agonizing Blast.

Invocations like Misty Visions, Beast Speech, Mask of Many Faces, or Book of Ancient Secrets(Tome only) are amazingly powerful and flexible tools that are often much more useful than Agonizing Blast before 5th Level.

 

[Blue]

I contend that if it lasts you 8 hours then you weren't in any real danger anyway so it doesn't really matter what spells you were casting. Hex is one of those things that is only good when you didn't need it anyway.

I understand that is what you are asserting, but care to put some supporting details to why?

I've put forth that (a) most save DCs are fairly easy, and (b) you can potentially have it AND have a full spell load. At worst, when things get really tough and you "need" it, you have it for part of the combat before losing your concentration - and that likely is a freebie left-over from an earlier combat taking no slots from this one, and that previous combat was over sooner perhaps saving you and/or other party members other resources because you were able to roll over the foes as you say - when you don't "need" it.

I should add that I think a lot of the group think also involves the assumption both that the Warlock won't be hit and also won't have enemies in melee. Both Hex and Eldritch Blast become far less effective when enemies attack the soft ranged attacker.

This is true of the warlock regardless if they are casting spells or using EB. As such, we need to take it either way. Since it's true both ways and not more important either way, it's equally balanced between if the warlock is focusing on EB or other spells. It doesn't change the balance point between those.

It's not that Agonizing Blast is bad, it's that with only 2 invocations there are better things to do.

I would much rather have a ritual book and at will silent image than Agonizing Blast for example.

Once 5th level comes around and I have 3 invocations and I'm getting +4 damage for 2 attacks, well that's pretty good. Though the cantrip is still not going to turn the tide of a difficult fight, Hex or no Hex.

If that was true, no one would ever play a weapon wielder. That contribution round after round is what ends the fight. The fact is that the warlock has some great things to do but many are limited to a few times per short rest - being able to spend the rest of the time making a meaningful damage contribution that is on par with weapon wielders is a good thing.

 

[Caliban]

I just don't have these problems. My warlock is usually the party tank...

 

[abirdcall]

I've put forth that (a) most save DCs are fairly easy, and (b) you can potentially have it AND have a full spell load. At worst, when things get really tough and you "need" it, you have it for part of the combat before losing your concentration

If things get tough you need more than +1d6.

- and that likely is a freebie left-over from an earlier combat taking no slots from this one, and that previous combat was over sooner perhaps saving you and/or other party members other resources because you were able to roll over the foes as you say - when you don't "need" it.

If that previous combat was easy then you didn't need to spend your spell on Hex.

It's Mage Armour vs Shield. Shield is better because you can use it for a greater effect when you actually need it. Mage Armour requires an upfront casting and might be completely useless.

This is true of the warlock regardless if they are casting spells or using EB. As such, we need to take it either way. Since it's true both ways and not more important either way, it's equally balanced between if the warlock is focusing on EB or other spells. It doesn't change the balance point between those.

If you get hit you can lose concentration. Warlocks don't have Con Save proficiency. Concentration will be lost even with a DC 10 check often enough.

Eldritch Blast is a ranged attack. The Warlock is at disadvantage when in melee.

If that was true, no one would ever play a weapon wielder. That contribution round after round is what ends the fight. The fact is that the warlock has some great things to do but many are limited to a few times per short rest - being able to spend the rest of the time making a meaningful damage contribution that is on par with weapon wielders is a good thing.

The Warlock can make a contribution without spending a lot of resources to do a bit more damage.

Instead of doing a bit more damage in a fight there are plenty of spells and invocations that can end or bypass a fight entirely.

That's what spellcasters are great at.

If you want to play a Warlock as a ranged attacker that's fine. Just don't complain when all your character does is ranged attacks. Also don't state that it is the strongest/best way to Warlock.

There are plenty of very strong and powerful ways to play Warlock that don't involve Hex or Eldritch Blast.

While Eldritch Blast is a good option, it's also perfectly okay not to take it. I've read a lot of comments that if a Warlock doesn't take Eldritch Blast they're actively playing a terrible character. I will even go as far as to say that Hex is not optimal after level 5. It's fine, not terrible, but not terribly strong either. It is pretty terrible after level 9 though.

The point of the post is that there are many ways to play powerful Warlocks because a lot of people feel like the only good way is Hex + Agonizing Blast. Do you feel that way?

 

[abirdcall]

I just don't have these problems. My warlock is usually the party tank...

This is a great and fun way to play a Warlock and is keeping with my post.

Warlocks can do other things than Hex + Agonizing Blast. They have lots of options.