D&D 5E Slow Natural Healing in actual play

[The Crimson Binome]

I would be curious how you determine the damage they are taking regarding this. Does every "hit" by an arrow constitute them actually being pierced by an arrow? I've never interpreted it that way.

That would seem to be the point of the whole sidebar, about how different DMs describe damage differently, and then having the different rules to slow down HP/HD recovery. I know that some DMs described damage that way in AD&D and 3E, and took issue with 4E because it didn't support that interpretation.

Unfortunately, even the slowest variant in 5E will still allow you to go from virtually zero, all the way up to full, after one night of rest. The only difference is that, in the grittiest variant, you can only go from zero-to-full-overnight once every other week.

 

[iserith]

I answered that earlier, but to state it another way, I would like to encourage players to think more strategically and to feel that being wounded matters. When you can just get through a bunch fights knowing you'll be topped off after a long rest and be fresh as new, being wounded doesn't feel like it matters as much to me.

I think this goes back to how one describes damage though. There's a disconnect if one thinks about hit points as wounds. The solution there is to modify one's thinking. That doesn't encourage players to think more strategically, but it at least resolves the realism issue to some extent.

I imagine it would also be helpful to break down what it would look like for players to "think more strategically" compared to what they are doing now in your game. We could then try to come up with ways to incentivize those sorts of behaviors, whatever they may be.

It's kind of like some modern video games that allow you to auto heal after 10 or 15 seconds. You can just grind through a level taking damage and then hiding until you "heal up" automatically, then go out guns blazing taking more damage and hiding again to heal up. Rinse and repeat. While I've played some great story based games that use that mechanic (the Uncharted series, for example), I prefer games that don't auto-heal me just by sitting around and hiding. It makes me learn to be more skillful, and it adds a feeling that how I approach things matters, and I'm more likely to plan and use strategy while increasing skill instead of constantly just shooting and hiding, knowing there won't be much consequence.

I'm definitely no expert on video games. How do the games that don't auto-heal you for hanging out or hiding do it? Longer countdown timer? Have to get a healing potion or food? Something like that?

 

[alienux]

I imagine it would also be helpful to break down what it would look like for players to "think more strategically" compared to what they are doing now in your game. We could then try to come up with ways to incentivize those sorts of behaviors, whatever they may be.

I used the word wounds, but we do treat HP as described in the PHB. But that's really not relevant to what I'm talking about. Regardless of how you define it, it's a resource that you have that when depleted, potentially leads to death. If it's so easily replenished, protecting that resource isn't as big of a deal.

I'm definitely no expert on video games. How do the games that don't auto-heal you for hanging out or hiding do it? Longer countdown timer? Have to get a healing potion or food? Something like that?

They usually allow you to heal through a limited supply of healing items that can be found or crafted. The fact that they're limited, and that you don't just heal fully by hiding for 10 seconds, causes players, as I mentioned, to learn to fight better, and to be more strategic in how they approach proceeding through fights and/or dangerous situations. With auto healing, you just make a little progress, hide and heal up, make a little more progress, hide and heal up again, etc. For my taste, that just isn't as engaging or as fun. It can still be fun, don't get me wrong, I just prefer the former.

 

[Lpoppe22]

I'm on the fence for healing. I can see longer heal times really breaking down groups that can't meet as often. That's why mine uses spells and rest periods as listed

 

[iserith]

I used the word wounds, but we do treat HP as described in the PHB. But that's really not relevant to what I'm talking about. Regardless of how you define it, it's a resource that you have that when depleted, potentially leads to death. If it's so easily replenished, protecting that resource isn't as big of a deal.

They usually allow you to heal through a limited supply of healing items that can be found or crafted. The fact that they're limited, and that you don't just heal fully by hiding for 10 seconds, causes players, as I mentioned, to learn to fight better, and to be more strategic in how they approach proceeding through fights and/or dangerous situations. With auto healing, you just make a little progress, hide and heal up, make a little more progress, hide and heal up again, etc. For my taste, that just isn't as engaging or as fun. It can still be fun, don't get me wrong, I just prefer the former.

Okay, so what would protecting that resource ideally look like in play? Jacking up AC? Getting a lot of debuffs on the enemy or situational advantage? Avoiding fights altogether? The latter is somewhat tricky because a lot of people say they'd like to see more of that, but in my experience, people love to have fights and have fun in the doing. So discouraging something people like doing can be risky.

Do you feel like the difficulty level of your challenges is reduced in some way due to the normal hit point/healing mechanic? Are you hitting the expected combat challenges per day? Are they ending a typical adventuring day down on hit dice?

I'm feeling like there's a solution here, but maybe the slower healing rate variant isn't it.

 

[Charlaquin]

I imagine it would also be helpful to break down what it would look like for players to "think more strategically" compared to what they are doing now in your game. We could then try to come up with ways to incentivize those sorts of behaviors, whatever they may be.

So much this. Players are actually very good at finding and using the most effective strategy. If players are rushing headlong into combat and relying on rest to heal, that’s probably because it’s the most efficient strategy given the challenges they are being presented with and the resources at their disposal. In my experience, what DMs usually mean by “strategic thinking” is “avoiding combat.” And is what you want players to try to avoid combat, the way to do that is by making avoiding combat the most efficient strategy. Ramp up the encounter difficulty so that players can’t easily rely on high HP totals relative to incoming damage to get them through most encounters. Add time pressure so they can’t easily rely on long rests to refill their HP between encounters. And most importantly, reward the players for avoiding combat as much or more than you do for killing enemies. I guarantee you, changing the way you award XP will have a far greater impact on the tactics players employ than changing the hp and healing rules will. For example, if you don’t award any XP for killing monsters, but award it instead for acquiring treasure, you will immediately start to see players avoiding direct combat in favor of going around the monsters and straight to the treasure they guard. Award XP for each monster that survive an encounter, players will start favoring nonletal methods of resolving encounters, from melee attacks to knock enemies out, sleep and other incapacitating spells, diplomacy, etc. Award XP for discovering hidden areas and you’ll start seeing players scour every room for hidden doors and the like. Because players are excellent strategic thinkers. The key is to reward the strategies you want them to use.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

They usually allow you to heal through a limited supply of healing items that can be found or crafted. The fact that they're limited, and that you don't just heal fully by hiding for 10 seconds, causes players, as I mentioned, to learn to fight better, and to be more strategic in how they approach proceeding through fights and/or dangerous situations. With auto healing, you just make a little progress, hide and heal up, make a little more progress, hide and heal up again, etc.

Relevant to the topic at hand, some RPGs limit healing by placing a hard cap on the number of healing items you can carry. The Tales series seems to go with 15 each, for example; if it would take you more than 15 apple gels to get through a dungeon, then you need to get better (either skill-wise, or level-grinding) until you can do so.

One of the most notable examples is the first Final Fantasy game, where you could only carry 99 potions at a time, and each potion only healed 30hp; it could be legitimately challenging to get to a dungeon, beat it, and get back to town without running out of HP. You might have to attempt a dungeon two or three times, retreating to restock when you felt you were pushing your luck, if you didn't know where you were going or if you wanted to explore for hidden treasure. The over-all impression is pretty close to the old Gygaxian "skilled play" dungeon crawls, from what I can tell.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I use Slow Natural Healing and Healer's Kit Dependency (for short rest's only).

It's been going well. Basically, if you are high enough level and have enough magical healing, you might be able to heal up before going to bed and be mostly okay the next day (though you might still be down some HD). Without it, it might take a few days to recover.

It changes the feel a little bit towards the more classic styles, which is the point, so I recommend it.

The only potential issue is that fighter's Second Wind (and any other short-rest healing based resource) isn't designed to work with it. With normal healing, there isn't a problem with the fighter using Second Wind again and again and getting back up to full hp, because everyone will get full hp after a long rest anyway. But with this version, the fighter's potential healing can be absurd relative the rest of the problem. (You might not ever run into that in actual play, but I prefer to head off issues with verasimilitude like that before they happen.) The solution I've settled on is limiting short rests to 4 per 24 hours. That would deal with Second Wind, and any imbalances that might occur from spamming short rests. (The game's assumes 2 short rests per 1 long rest, though lower or higher won't hurt anything). I've been playing/DMing since the playtest, and I don't think any group I've been with has ever even taken 4 short rests in a day, so in practice this hasn't changed anything. It has set up the world though to maintain the feel I'm going for, even at higher levels when spamming short rests may actually be useful.

 

[Charlaquin]

Do you feel like the difficulty level of your challenges is reduced in some way due to the normal hit point/healing mechanic? Are you hitting the expected combat challenges per day? Are they ending a typical adventuring day down on hit dice?

I'm feeling like there's a solution here, but maybe the slower healing rate variant isn't it.

Not to put words in anyone’s mouth here, but I know for some folks it’s less about the players’ specific tactics for preserving the resource, and more about wanting the management of that resource to span a longer unit of play than the management of, say, spell slots. Wanting HP to be something you manage over the course of a whole adventure rather than the course of a day.

 

[5ekyu]

I answered that earlier, but to state it another way, I would like to encourage players to think more strategically and to feel that being wounded matters. When you can just get through a bunch fights knowing you'll be topped off after a long rest and be fresh as new, being wounded doesn't feel like it matters as much to me.

It's kind of like some modern video games that allow you to auto heal after 10 or 15 seconds. You can just grind through a level taking damage and then hiding until you "heal up" automatically, then go out guns blazing taking more damage and hiding again to heal up. Rinse and repeat. While I've played some great story based games that use that mechanic (the Uncharted series, for example), I prefer games that don't auto-heal me just by sitting around and hiding. It makes me learn to be more skillful, and it adds a feeling that how I approach things matters, and I'm more likely to plan and use strategy while increasing skill instead of constantly just shooting and hiding, knowing there won't be much consequence.

I'm definitely not in favor of adding a bunch of downtime and having characters sit around for days waiting to heal up. I throw random encounters at them or have other consequences if they do that. I like to keep my games at a decent pace, which is why I'm asking for others to share their experiences with this option.

Ok so if you want players to make choices other than combat more often AND do not want to add downtime consequences then i would say the change to require longer and longer periods of downtime is not the way to go.

You are literally hanging up a sword of "stuff you and i wont enjoy -unfun" and hoping they wont cut the thread. Its like holding a gun ppinted at "fun" and saying "dont do it or the ..... gets it."

I suggest you look at a variety of things you think would be FUN and put them into the other "strategic" options. As Kevin Costner said "Ifyou make it fun, they will play it."

Or more heavy handed...

One IMO big candidate is the SpiderMan principle. Put simply, they cannot beat the bad guy straight up.

Out of the box, head on, they lose.

But... If they change the circumstances... They can win.

Sneak around and remove macgufgin 1-3 and his assistants will be unable to help.

Find a missing macguffin and his whammy items will fail for a round or ten.

Make alliances for some ritual casting from allies that...

Make alliances for allies to draw off his forces.

All of these still allow the combats to take place but to varying degrees require or reward the other approaches as well.

But as a real look in the mirror, consider, if your players keep "gping to" fighting thru when they get the opportunity MAYBE just MAYBE you as GM actively moving to change/setup the campain to make that not work anymore or as much is not really in the service of the fun for everybody as much as maybe to your preferences.




Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app