D&D 5E How Things Get Lost IRL

[Krachek]

DnD core assumption is a place in a perpetual simili Renaissance world (1400).
Just add Dinosaurs, Viking from era 1000, Demons, Dragons, Magic, and a patchwork of many others timeline such as pharaoh and pyramids.
That is pretty much the core assumption of many DM. Not very logic, but very interesting to play.

 

[mrpopstar]

Writing

Losing writing is a lot rarer than losing a language. Even when another culture invades over time what usually happens is one language or writing replaces another. Very few cultures have lost the art of writing once they discover it or aquire it from another culture. For example the Roman empire is gone but we are using its legacy to communicate on these forums using this alphabet. Generally you need a total collapse of society in ancient times or in an isolated part of the world. The Greeks underwent a dark ages which lasted around 300 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

What probably happened was that a reasonably small amount of people were literate perhaps less than 100 people. War probably disrupted that time period and several cities were destroyed. The literate people were either killed or with the destruction of the city states there was a collapse of organised bureaucracy so any literate survivors probably had to become farmers or whatever to survive. The Mayans might be another example and their collapse is probably a combination of environmental problems and war- any literate survivors would have lost their state sponsored position.

Biblioclasm and libricide are (and always have been) the single most effective means of erasing culture, interrupting progress, purging history, wiping memory, and rendering things "lost" (says your friendly local librarian, dispassionately and without bias).

 

[BookBarbarian]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1796_light_cavalry_sabre

I always like the 1796 Heavy Calvary Sabre more. The Light was perfect in swinging, but if you were too cramped to swing your arm it was poor to thrust with.

 

[Zardnaar]

Biblioclasm and libricide are (and always have been) the single most effective means of erasing culture, interrupting progress, purging history, wiping memory, and rendering things "lost" (says your friendly local librarian, dispassionately and without bias).

The church hates science thing is a bit of a myth- at least that is what my University professor argued lol. In the Renaissance for example the church was one of the biggest patrons of the arts and most of the early universities were also tied to churches as well. IIRC it was the Anglican church that more or less ran most of the Universities in the UK a few centuries ago.

Its not quite as simplistic as claiming that the church is anti science. It has been on some issues/individuals and it varies by time as well. The net balance overall I would argue is still on the positive side. Technology and sciences has often gone hand in hand with the church, they were the ones who preserved a lot of the knowledge we do have (especially in the east AKA Byzantine Empire), the worlds oldest Koran was preserved in a church, they helped sponsor the Renaissance building techniques on Notre Dame for example were utilised on other buildings.

The bible for example is not a perfect account of the ancient world but until recently it was the only one in terms of things like Assyria etc. Early archaeologists at least had a rough idea where to look and what to look for in terms of Iraq/Egypt etc. Even this text we are using is arguably because of the church as they were the ones who preserved literacy in the west, and they spread literacy in the east as well- in Russia for example.

 

[mrpopstar]

The church hates science thing is a bit of a myth- at least that is what my University professor argued lol. In the Renaissance for example the church was one of the biggest patrons of the arts and most of the early universities were also tied to churches as well. IIRC it was the Anglican church that more or less ran most of the Universities in the UK a few centuries ago.

Its not quite as simplistic as claiming that the church is anti science. It has been on some issues/individuals and it varies by time as well. The net balance overall I would argue is still on the positive side. Technology and sciences has often gone hand in hand with the church, they were the ones who preserved a lot of the knowledge we do have (especially in the east AKA Byzantine Empire), the worlds oldest Koran was preserved in a church, they helped sponsor the Renaissance building techniques on Notre Dame for example were utilised on other buildings.

The bible for example is not a perfect account of the ancient world but until recently it was the only one in terms of things like Assyria etc. Early archaeologists at least had a rough idea where to look and what to look for in terms of Iraq/Egypt etc. Even this text we are using is arguably because of the church as they were the ones who preserved literacy in the west, and they spread literacy in the east as well- in Russia for example.

As a college professor, myself, who teaches Information Science 101 and Book History, and I can surely attest that the Wikipedia entry you've been informed by is wholly inadequate and not a worthy reference for this assignment.



The destruction of written records and libraries is not merely a function of religion vs. science. Warring peoples have burned cultural institutions to the ground through untold centuries, mostly for the purposes of erasing the very fact that their victims ever existed (see also Palmyra). -- This is why The New York Public Library, Boston Athenaeum, etc., are "soft targets" for terrorism in the United States.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I would hasten to point out that I wasn't levelling a finger at gods in general for stagnation of technology. I was specifically levelling it at the FR gods and Gond in particular, who makes it his business to involve his followers and church in any technology, and in prior editions granted "make technology work even though it shouldn't" magic to his priests, which is just going to foul up the progress of science.

One could also point at Mystra, who's apparently decided that Gond is a bad guy because he likes technology more than magic. Or something.

Like I said - FR gods are whiny petulant s.

Also, in general: even if your fantasy world doesn't conform to real world science, I've not seen a DM capable of running a game where applying the scientific method would be impossible and anybody at all would have fun.

 

[Zardnaar]

As a college professor, myself, who teaches Information Science 101 and Book History, and I can surely attest that the Wikipedia entry you've been informed by is wholly inadequate and not a worthy reference for this assignment.



The destruction of written records and libraries is not merely a function of religion vs. science. Warring peoples have burned cultural institutions to the ground through untold centuries, mostly for the purposes of erasing the very fact that their victims ever existed (see also Palmyra). -- This is why The New York Public Library, Boston Athenaeum, etc., are "soft targets" for terrorism in the United States.

If you are referring to the Great Library of Alexandria its not even 100% sure the Christians burnt it, and it had previously caught fire during Caesars time IIRC.

I also did not use wikipedia nor am I trying to whitewash things the various churches did but I think the Christians and Muslims preserved and created more than they destroyed or suppressed.

And burning things down you do not like (Aztec Codices, Library of Alexandria maybe) is not exclusive to Christians, Alexander the Great did it (Persepolis) and manuscripts were destroyed in the Allied bombing raids in WW2.

Did the churches destroy stuff, sure absolutely (I'm not religious BTW), I just do not like my dislike of organised religion or the modern proponents of some of the stupid stuff these days blind me to the fact of what the churches did to advance the sciences.

 

[mrpopstar]

If you are referring to the Great Library of Alexandria its not even 100% sure the Christians burnt it, and it had previously caught fire during Caesars time IIRC.

I also did not use wikipedia nor am I trying to whitewash things the various churches did but I think the Christians and Muslims preserved and created more than they destroyed or suppressed.

And burning things down you do not like (Aztec Codices, Library of Alexandria maybe) is not exclusive to Christians, Alexander the Great did it (Persepolis) and manuscripts were destroyed in the Allied bombing raids in WW2.

Did the churches destroy stuff, sure absolutely (I'm not religious BTW), I just do not like my dislike of organised religion or the modern proponents of some of the stupid stuff these days blind me to the fact of what the churches did to advance the sciences.

I did not mention churches, or name a religion, and I am not mentioning Alexandria, nor am I claiming that any particular group exclusively claims the destruction of cultural memory.



The Chinese, in their imperial efforts, are probably the most guilty of erasure through records destruction as they conquered and forcibly assimilated, but that's an aside.

Things get "lost" IRL because documented memory get destroyed (which directly speaks to the issue of lost language as well).

 

[Eltab]

Its not quite as simplistic as claiming that the church is anti science.

That particular statement is not merely myth, it is slander. I refer to anti-religious attitudes as "the Shadow of the Enlightenment". Sometimes people understand what I mean.

{begin: 'professor drifts off on a tangent during class lecture' voice}
You have to dig into the religion and discover its philosophy of existence.
Are its god(s) consistent? Can they be known, in whole or in large part? Then the church will support inquiry and learning and science - to "figure out God better so we can be more like him and help work his will".
OTOH, are the god(s) inconsistent, impulsive, random? Can they never be known very much at all? Then the church will consider inquiry and learning and science to be a waste of time, running down a rabbit hole.
{end: voice}

 

[Eltab]

If you are referring to the Great Library of Alexandria its not even 100% sure the Christians burnt it, and it had previously caught fire during Caesars time IIRC.

Unfortunately, buildings full of flammable materials have accidents from time to time. Some of them suffer losses whose value exceeds what can be measured with money.

There are records of early Christian and early Muslim leaders starting riots around the Library because of the "ungodly" knowledge therein (which they were unfamiliar with, but knew that its source was some old dead guys). The person who uttered the infamous I-don't-care quote was Muslim.

The antidote quote: "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton, during his knighting ceremony.