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Lets design a Warlord for 5th edition

I gave you a list of broken stuff. Rogue and Warlock come to mind. It's also action granting at level 1 at will. Aalso raises issue of level dipping. A lore bard can take a single level of this and gets a massive upgrade.
I did address the level dipping in my hypothetical proposal.

High at-will damage can't be broken if it's exactly the same as another class. You simply have to balance it like you would balance a rogue or warlock. You treat it like a damage class, not a support class.
 

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I did address the level dipping in my hypothetical proposal.

High at-will damage can't be broken if it's exactly the same as another class. You simply have to balance it like you would balance a rogue or warlock. You treat it like a damage class, not a support class.

Its not the same as another class though its the same as whatever class you need at the time and even a sorcerer for example built around spamming haste can't do what you want at level 10 using daily spell slots.

You post about the action granting did not address level dipping at all, and your action granting is actually the old 3.0 haste spell at will and that spell was broken as hell and was nerfed in 3.5. Its still broken in 5E.

The way 4E enabled at will attack granting was by defining a basic attack and every class had at will effects that were better than a basic attack. 5E doesn't use that paradigm and thats the essence of the problem.

Generally it seems you guys want an improved version of the battlemaster ability that is about 3 times better 2 levels earlier. The Battlemaster ability is actually quite good I have seen it used a a lot although they have other options apart from attack granting.

Attack granting might work on a Rogue, action granting doesn't work at all (at least at will). Ironically both mysself and Mearls came up with a high level warlord granting an action to the whole party so the concept is fine not at will though. You're basically granting action surges.

Much like how a Sorcerer devoted to attack granting with haste (and can do other stuff that is around level 10) my suggestion is have attack granting as an option and the warlord can get better at it as they level up. It just solves so many problems like front loading a class and if you focus on it enough by level 10 or so it may not be at will 100% of the time but its going to be close.

And if you want a warlord that does something else you can do that as well. You can compare it with other at will damage buffs in 5E but they have been remarkably conservative in the class designs for it. Its +2 damage at low levels, a daily spell slot at level 2, and extra dice at level 8 for clerics, level 12 option for a warlock (charisma to weapon attack damage), a 2nd attack at level 5 for the martial classes, 6 for the gish classes.

The warlord is basically a support class and in 5E that means not much damage at least at will. Spell casters can nova the damage higher of course and no one is saying the warlord can't have abilities that let them do that either. The difference is its not at will, since the warlord won't be using spell slots that more or less means short rest enabled and short rest stuff is roughly 1/3rd of a daily spell slot.

So yeah the warlord should absolutely be better at attack granting than a Battlemaster fighting but at will is a step to far, 5E is not designed for it 4E was. Its like some people claiming warlord healing should be based around hit dice mostly because that is the closest thing to healing surges in 5E. Why not just grant the warlord a healing surge ability instead of trying to force 4E mechanics into 5E as hit dice based healing is terrible by comparison to a cleric or (bard or druid) for example.

Your action granting suggest did not mention anything about MCing either and the problem is something like a lore bard (which is crap at damage) can splash a level and more or less say "sign me up baby) as a lor bards at will attacks is a meh cantrip and 1d6 +2 or +3 and they get a massive 2 daily spell slots at level 1.

So at will attack granting in general in 5E is a bad idea, its out right terrible at level 1 and even worse if its at will action granting (see 3.0 haste spell).
 

You post about the action granting did not address level dipping at all, and your action granting is actually the old 3.0 haste spell at will and that spell was broken as hell and was nerfed in 3.5. Its still broken in 5E.
Not really worth reading a wall of text if you're not going to read my relatively short post.
 

Not really worth reading a wall of text if you're not going to read my relatively short post.

I was referring to this post.


" People keep arguing this point because it ISN'T obvious. Assume the following baseline:
Warlord Class
1d6 HD
Simple weapons, light armor.
2 skills, 2 saves
ASIs at 4,8,12,16,19.
Class feature: Action grant. You can spend your action to allow an ally with a level (or CR) of your level or lower to take any one action as a reaction.

Now, assuming that's it, no other class features, is it broken? It's obviously not the way a real class would be finalized, but with that framework and nothing else, it is OP?"
 

I was referring to this post.


" People keep arguing this point because it ISN'T obvious. Assume the following baseline:
Warlord Class
1d6 HD
Simple weapons, light armor.
2 skills, 2 saves
ASIs at 4,8,12,16,19.
Class feature: Action grant. You can spend your action to allow an ally with a level (or CR) of your level or lower to take any one action as a reaction.

Now, assuming that's it, no other class features, is it broken? It's obviously not the way a real class would be finalized, but with that framework and nothing else, it is OP?"
Yes, that would be the one where there's verbiage to handle a dip situation.
 


I was referring to this post.


" People keep arguing this point because it ISN'T obvious. Assume the following baseline:
Warlord Class
1d6 HD
Simple weapons, light armor.
2 skills, 2 saves
ASIs at 4,8,12,16,19.
Class feature: Action grant. You can spend your action to allow an ally with a level (or CR) of your level or lower to take any one action as a reaction.

Now, assuming that's it, no other class features, is it broken? It's obviously not the way a real class would be finalized, but with that framework and nothing else, it is OP?"
No. It would be underpowered by itself. You would match the highest at-will damage, but all classes (but the rogue) have expendable features.

So, that feature, plus say... action surge and 1/3 caster. Then your on par with an eldrich knight.
 

Whats the part about level dipping again though? Its a great level dip for lore bards for example being an obvious one or even the battlemaster fighter.
I restricted the action grant to only allies of your (warlord) level or below.

Probably not the most elegant way to do it, thinking about it further, I would probably scale the action grants based on warlord level.

Level 1 - Dodge, Dash, Use an Item, Disengage, one attack (not the attack action)
3 - Cantrip, 1st level spell (Int mod /LR)
5 - Attack action, 2nd level spell or lower (Int mod /LR)
7 - 3rd level spell or lower (Int mod/LR), 1st level spells at will
9 - 4th level spell or lower (Int mod/LR), 1st level spells at will
11 - 5th level spell or lower (Int mod/LR), 2nd level spells at will
13 - 3rd level spells at will
15 - 4th level spells at will
17 - 5th level spells at will
 

I'd still rather bring a light cleric or something. This hypothetical warlord isn't providing any spell slots, or even another concentration slot. I don't see any spell combination that's going to win a fight that the party members you're enabling couldn't simply do themselves on their own turns. This hypothetical warlord just lets you get out a particular combination faster, if needed.

Yes, faster is precisely what this hypothetical warlord does. For example, DPR is a rate. It's Damage PER Round. It's the rate (fastness) that's important in that stat. So please don't discount it just because all it does is "faster"

You don't always need to cast hold person back to back but this warlord enables it when desired (for example when the first one misses). You don't always have to cast a big heal spell back to back but this warlord enables that when needed (like when an 2 allys drop to 0 due to a big aoe spell).

And then in the turns your not granting important cleric or wizard or druid spells you are granting the highest DPR of the party which is what you typically do but aren't required to do.

Essentially you get to do the damage of SS CE fighter except that you can also use your action to allow a spellcaster to cast an important spell when desired. Yea, that's strong even without granting any additional spell slots as your primary strength is doing high at will damage and the spells when needed is the icing on the cake.
 

@Zardnaar , Please try to give reasoned thoughtful responses to these questions

How many attack grants (not action grants) should a 5th level character be able to grant in a day (assuming that they are only allowing the character granted the attack to make an additional attack on their turn, unlike haste which does allow a method for the granted attack to be on an off turn)?

We know a level 5 Sorcerer can cast a twinned haste 3 times per day (I estimate that at 24 attacks granted per day). We know a battlemaster fighter at level 5 can generally grant 8-12 attacks per day depending on short rests. All of these can be off turn attacks as well.

Should a Warlord be able to reach those limits especially with an "on turn" restricted extra attack? Or should he maybe get to exceed those limits? And if so by what amount? And if that amount is already quickly approaching the number needed in the day to make it be "essentially at-will" then what's the problem with just letting him have at-will attack granting instead of a daily resource that would allow essentially the same thing?
 
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