What is *worldbuilding* for?

Well, yeah, we pretty much ignored alignment from day 2. It was, at best, a sort of 'character trait' you wrote on your sheet. I never utilized any of the silly alignment languages and nonsense either. In fact I simply scrapped the whole 'Great Wheel' pretty much from day one. That did make a few items and spells ambiguous, but that was OK, they just didn't work reliably! lol. I mean, if you hit a demon with something that hurt CE beings, it would hurt! If you hit a PC with it, they better be incredibly depraved and actively engaged in some really depraved activity.
I've kept alignment, and my universe and its deities/planes/etc. are very much alignment-based, but there's lots of gray fuzzy areas when it comes to sentient beings. Everything smart enough to think has an alignment; though sometimes in the case of PCs the results gained by casting Know Alignment that come from me don't entirely line up with what's written on the character sheet. :)

I also tossed the alignment tongues, and - years later - also tossed Thieves' and Assassins' cants as nobody ever used them.

The PHB1 is a good solid book. It isn't the most exciting book to read,
Dry as dust, is how I remember it. :)
but it works and does its job. I think all 3 core books could have used a whole additional PT and editing cycle though. 4e should have been slated for 2010, not 2008.
If you like such things.

Me, I'd rather they'd have gone straight to what's become 5e.
 

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There isn't such a thing as "all the possible", "enough", "not enough", "think of everything", etc. The question doesn't apply. The DM simply places some things that he thinks the players will find interesting. If they do, they engage. If they don't, they pass it by.
More importantly, but perhaps not quite as obvious:

The DM placing some things that might be interesting has a use even if the players/PCs don't find those particular things interesting at the time: it informs and-or reminds the players (and PCs) that there's more to the world than what's right in front of their noses nad- in meta terms - it also quietly serves notice that neither the players nor the DM are required to stay tied to whatever story path they might be on.

Sometimes the players also place things of possible interest to other players. I've run a PC in an adventure set by another player's PC during an ongoing campaign. She-as-PC set the adventure and left the area; she-as-player gave instructions (and the adventure details) to the DM ahead of time and then sat and watched during the session(s?) where myself and another player played through it.

Howzat for player agency! :)

Lan-"somewhat surprisingly I got out of that adventure on time and in one piece, unlike my overly-greedy companion"-efan
 

I've kept alignment, and my universe and its deities/planes/etc. are very much alignment-based, but there's lots of gray fuzzy areas when it comes to sentient beings. Everything smart enough to think has an alignment; though sometimes in the case of PCs the results gained by casting Know Alignment that come from me don't entirely line up with what's written on the character sheet. :)

Alignment in my game is used on the DM side as vague guide to how a creature behaves. I don't have the luxury that the players do of concentrating one just one being, so alignment is invaluable to me. However, alignments just can't capture anywhere near the entire personality of a person, so for the PCs if a player wants to put an alignment down he can, but I don't care about it for game play. I'd much rather have the players roleplay a complex personality than the simple caricature that trying to stay within one alignment creates.

I also tossed the alignment tongues, and - years later - also tossed Thieves' and Assassins' cants as nobody ever used them.

Me, too, except you can add druidic to the mix.
 

Yes, except for the part that's no, which is all of it. How come it's so hard for you to understand that people can enjoy something that they didn't think of? Do you become some sort of lesser beast whenever something comes up in real life that you didn't think of, but enjoy? I sure don't, and neither have any of the hundreds of players that I've played with over the decades.
It isn't hard for me to understand anything at all! I'm not arguing that. You're the one that claimed that I'm doing it wrong because the players had to actually decide what they wanted and think of things. I'm not saying its 'wrong' to feed them some pre-built story, or make all the decisions about what is in the story, unless they don't want that. I DO believe that players are, generally speaking, very willing and interested in coming up with stuff. More than you give them credit for sometimes. There's no right or wrong way to play. I only object to statements like you telling me I'm denying them choices because I don't play your way. It just isn't like that. Understand?

So as long as you can connect it to a PC interest, however tenuous, it's okay?
No, what I think is that when you put forward an element like "the skeleton of a knight chained to a wall" it is so general that it COULD relate to almost anything. The knight could hold some secret that can be obtained by laying his bones to rest. His bone could be magical. Finding his resting place could earn a reward or garner favor somewhere. One of the characters might see it as a duty to lay him to rest, despite resistance or danger. He could be a relative of a PC and his death require vengeance. He could owe the PCs a debt that he will repay in some future time. I can think of 50 different ways to tie that into various PC agendas. The problem is I can make up INFINITE things like that, drawn from myth, legend, literary sources, my own imagination, player suggestions, etc. I need some filter, some process with which to winnow down the content included in THIS game at THIS time to something manageable so that the game can flow instead of just flailing around from one minor incident to another. Expressed player interest, campaign or genre focus, etc., all used in Story Now games, can be such a rule. Its a good one because it does mostly guarantee interest in the content.

Railroading is also taking control of the PCs without having an in game reason for the control, eliminating choices, and more.
Nobody is dictating character actions here. Just narrating the effects of player choices. The players stated they wanted to travel to the giant cave, so they did. Its literally absurd to call that 'railroading'. When you do so you lose all credibility in terms of your analysis. Its like somebody that tells me some absurd IT Architecture fable, I just laugh and stop listening to them, they're clearly not a source of reliable analysis in that field.

It can't be stronger on options. Players in both styles can think of all the same things, but only one of the styles has a DM also thinking of things for the players to have fun with. Also, nice bit of hyperbole with the whole infinite fun things. People are flat out incapable of even coming close to thinking of infinite things, let alone infinite things that are fun. Heck, at any given moment they aren't even capable of thinking of all the things that they have had fun with in their lives.
I don't agree, in Story Now, the GM is framing the scenes. He can bring in practically any element he can think of as long as he can tie it into the story and make it relevant (or I guess if it is just purely color then whatever). When I say 'infinite things' I mean that I, and presumably a lot of other people who play RPGs, can keep thinking of 'stuff' indefinitely. If you ask me to give you some sort of piece of game material, and you keep rejecting my offerings, I can keep supplying new ones. I don't know of any limit to my ability to do so, though I guess after a while they might start to become more and more similar to old material. I don't know if that constitutes a proper infinite set or not, it isn't really important to me. The point is I can generate material sufficient to absorb any conceivable amount of time people would actually have to play it in the real world. That is sufficient for the argument at hand.

No, that's provably false. If you can think of even one thing that is fun, your statement there is false. I never said they couldn't think of fun things. I said they can't think of all things that they would find fun, and that's a fact. People are limited, even geniuses.
But they CAN think of the things that they personally find fun. They are uniquely qualified to do that, and nobody else is so qualified. I MIGHT think of things my friends will find fun. If I know them well enough that's even likely, but they're the ones who can navigate their own moods, changing interests, whims, ideas and interests they've never conveyed before, and know what they are bored by and tired of, or just not wanting to do today. That is sufficient. The GM is less qualified to do that FOR the players. What your claim represents is AT LEAST that you will do a better job of it than the players, or I guess alternatively that you are so set on your style of play that you'd rather play a game less interesting to the players in order to play a certain way.

Now, I think you can make a reasonable case that there are things some players don't want from Story Now, maybe they really DON'T want to think about their motives, maybe they want you to tell them a story. Maybe they want to sip wine in taverns and listen to tales. Maybe a lot of things. I don't NEED to impose a style of gaming on people. I only assert that players often want to engage their own interests and that Story Now does that, and does it best!

Yes, I know that you can opt to miss out on the fun things along the trip in an RPG. My point with the example was to demonstrate through an analogy that you can encounter enjoyable things along a trip that you didn't think of yourself. This is a fact. In an RPG you can indeed not think of something, have the DM think of it, and still enjoy it.

I can opt to miss out on BORING things in an RPG. That's one of the major attractions. I don't have to deal with things that aren't interesting. Yes, the GM COULD invent something interesting for me to do along the way, or he could end up boring me. If I chose my own destination with an eye to what I wanted to do, then chances are extremely good that I will have fun there.

Beyond that, if the GM can engage my interests with some sort of challenge that interposes between me and the destination I wanted to reach, fine! Maybe its in the form of something I could move on past too. Maybe War Machine sees a car crash and he can decide to save people or else go on and finish up what he's doing. Instead of proceeding to New York he stops. OK, that could easily be considered "challenging a character's belief", but I wouldn't want to overuse that kind of ploy. Its fine as a way of illustrating the "price of being a hero" and creating a dilemma that helps define the character, but constantly dangling such things along every path would be silly. Dangling utterly unrelated things along the way is just gumming up the works IMHO. It is totally hit and miss.

I also don't agree about your 'pacing argument' that there has to be 'trivial stuff' along the way to make the 'good stuff' stand out. There are a lot of ways to produce pacing and rising and falling tension. Cluttering the story with trivia is crude at best IMHO. Notice what both Jackson and Bakshi cut from Fellowship of the Ring, Bombadil. While it is a cool and interesting story in its own right, and JRRT was a great storyteller, so he makes it work, it is still a sidetrack. MANY people who read the books lost interest there. Many skipped the whole section. These sorts of side plots and distractions are questionable at best, and in many cases simply bad news. Unless players signal they're really wanting to go off in some other direction, I don't TRY to introduce them. I certainly don't try to introduce pointless little 'intersections' that lead nowhere and just bog down play. I can create a break in the tension in a fun and interesting way instead, or the players can do that.
 

Which is why I give an example of play @pemerton's statements that, "The players are saying things to get the DM to give information." are so bloody worthless. It doesn't mean anything. He should be specifying things that matter, not making a statement that applies to all RPGs.
I think there IS a meaningful distinction in terms of what the GM is telling the players and who's engaged by it, and in what way. My point was that, since all gaming is interaction back and forth between participants, then the QUALITY of that interaction is what is meaningful, not its existence. So when you said "its all the same" I objected. I believe that was Pemerton's objection as well...

This is false. I run a GM centered game, and I often present fictions that don't suit me, but have to be presented because of what the players have their PCs do. If a player tells me that his PC is walking north to take over the ice barbarians, I have no choice but to present fictions that fall in line with that. To do anything else is to both break the social contract and be a bad DM.
I believe you, and I agree! So the question of the thread is now, basically, "why not run it No Myth?" Why have a fixed setting with established facts created by the GM ahead of time, which may become inconvenient stumbling blocks in the way of achieving the desired type of story? I don't mean that to say "why put challenges in the way of the character's goals" either. I could, in No Myth, state that the character has to survive a long and grueling trek far to the north. He could run into all sorts of problems along the way that test his resolve, tempt him to abandon his quest, provide opportunities to gain valuable support/equipment/knowledge, etc. We can both do that.

Given that you didn't know about the character's goal before the game was started, does it serve your interests to have things predefined. What if there was no place on your map for northern barbarians? It would present some difficulty. You could revamp the map, maybe nobody has anything vested in the current version, but I didn't even make a map, so I have no issue. I mean, we established that there are people who believe backstory and world detail have specific values. I'm pretty equivocal about that myself, but at least we're willing to agree there is a coherent argument there and its not ridiculous, even if we aren't that into it.

The vast majority of things that I add to a journey can be related to a PC is some way, even if it's sometimes a stretch. Remember, my goal is for the players to have fun.
Yes, I said the same thing, basically, in a post that probably came after this one. ;)

No idea man. I didn't say anything about "the end of the story". I specifically said journey.
Well, a lot of comments have had the tenor of "why can't the players just go to the end of the story?" (IE buy the holy sword in the local market on day one). So, when I hear this kind of statement I think of it as a question about pacing and who has responsibility and control over that.

Okay. What does this have to do with what I said?

It was more of an aside ;) Just saying that in WA Cosmology killing Torog is sort of the on ramp to divine levels of power. Its set up that way. Sort of like killing a demon lord, doable if you're REALLY bad-assed, but then you ARE really bad-assed at that point! Still, its not something that a GM has to cheapen his game to introduce. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s characters in that game are effectively myths. They're the most powerful members of their races who have ever lived. That's the conceit of 4e, Epic tier is where you're almost like a god. Sort of like 20th level play in AD&D (or the super high-level stuff in BECMI).
 

There isn't such a thing as "all the possible", "enough", "not enough", "think of everything", etc. The question doesn't apply. The DM simply places some things that he thinks the players will find interesting. If they do, they engage. If they don't, they pass it by.

OK, and I posit that one of the 'right' answers to this is 'zero things', and that's usually what I choose. There's no number that is magically 'railroading' or 'not railroading' (which was the original assertion, that Pemerton was railroading). Again, this is an aesthetic choice and an 'authorial' choice, and is perfectly consonant with good DMing! IMHO as you add more such distractions and 'dross' you degrade the focus of the game and it becomes less engaging. Still, you can add some fairly relevant thing, particularly if it is an obstacle or presents a choice (IE challenges the player's agenda/character beliefs).
 

It isn't hard for me to understand anything at all! I'm not arguing that. You're the one that claimed that I'm doing it wrong because the players had to actually decide what they wanted and think of things. I'm not saying its 'wrong' to feed them some pre-built story, or make all the decisions about what is in the story, unless they don't want that. I DO believe that players are, generally speaking, very willing and interested in coming up with stuff. More than you give them credit for sometimes. There's no right or wrong way to play. I only object to statements like you telling me I'm denying them choices because I don't play your way. It just isn't like that. Understand?

What's with the Strawman? I've never once argued that you were doing it wrong. I'm making an argument as this is a discussion, but not only have I never said you were doing it wrong, I've said it was okay to do it that way. As long as people are having fun, it's not wrong.

No, what I think is that when you put forward an element like "the skeleton of a knight chained to a wall" it is so general that it COULD relate to almost anything. The knight could hold some secret that can be obtained by laying his bones to rest. His bone could be magical. Finding his resting place could earn a reward or garner favor somewhere. One of the characters might see it as a duty to lay him to rest, despite resistance or danger. He could be a relative of a PC and his death require vengeance. He could owe the PCs a debt that he will repay in some future time. I can think of 50 different ways to tie that into various PC agendas.

Yes. Lots of very interesting things to be done that the players probably didn't think of.

The problem is I can make up INFINITE things like that, drawn from myth, legend, literary sources, my own imagination, player suggestions, etc. I need some filter, some process with which to winnow down the content included in THIS game at THIS time to something manageable so that the game can flow instead of just flailing around from one minor incident to another. Expressed player interest, campaign or genre focus, etc., all used in Story Now games, can be such a rule. Its a good one because it does mostly guarantee interest in the content.

And this is another misrepresentation of our playstyle. I've played in, or run a game that was like that.

I don't agree, in Story Now, the GM is framing the scenes. He can bring in practically any element he can think of as long as he can tie it into the story and make it relevant (or I guess if it is just purely color then whatever). When I say 'infinite things' I mean that I, and presumably a lot of other people who play RPGs, can keep thinking of 'stuff' indefinitely. If you ask me to give you some sort of piece of game material, and you keep rejecting my offerings, I can keep supplying new ones. I don't know of any limit to my ability to do so, though I guess after a while they might start to become more and more similar to old material. I don't know if that constitutes a proper infinite set or not, it isn't really important to me. The point is I can generate material sufficient to absorb any conceivable amount of time people would actually have to play it in the real world. That is sufficient for the argument at hand.

You don't agree? You really think that people can sit down and literally think of every possible thing that could happen? You could sit here for the rest of your life and not think of everything. No matter how much you think of, there will be something(many things(yuge things)) that you miss and others might think of.

But they CAN think of the things that they personally find fun. They are uniquely qualified to do that, and nobody else is so qualified. I MIGHT think of things my friends will find fun. If I know them well enough that's even likely, but they're the ones who can navigate their own moods, changing interests, whims, ideas and interests they've never conveyed before, and know what they are bored by and tired of, or just not wanting to do today. That is sufficient. The GM is less qualified to do that FOR the players. What your claim represents is AT LEAST that you will do a better job of it than the players, or I guess alternatively that you are so set on your style of play that you'd rather play a game less interesting to the players in order to play a certain way.

They are not uniquely qualified to do so. They are more qualified than I am, but as I know my players well, I am also qualified to think of things that they will find to be fun. And no, I've never said I will do a better job. I've said that can do an additional job. Please stop misrepresenting what I say.

Now, I think you can make a reasonable case that there are things some players don't want from Story Now, maybe they really DON'T want to think about their motives, maybe they want you to tell them a story. Maybe they want to sip wine in taverns and listen to tales. Maybe a lot of things. I don't NEED to impose a style of gaming on people. I only assert that players often want to engage their own interests and that Story Now does that, and does it best!

That's an opinion and nothing more. I've played with people who don't want to have to think that hard about their characters. They have told me that they just want to tell me what they are interesting and asked me to do the heavy lifting for them to realize their interest. Your way is a way, but it's not the best or worst. It's just one way that is best for YOU.

I also don't agree about your 'pacing argument' that there has to be 'trivial stuff' along the way to make the 'good stuff' stand out. There are a lot of ways to produce pacing and rising and falling tension. Cluttering the story with trivia is crude at best IMHO. Notice what both Jackson and Bakshi cut from Fellowship of the Ring, Bombadil. While it is a cool and interesting story in its own right, and JRRT was a great storyteller, so he makes it work, it is still a sidetrack. MANY people who read the books lost interest there. Many skipped the whole section. These sorts of side plots and distractions are questionable at best, and in many cases simply bad news. Unless players signal they're really wanting to go off in some other direction, I don't TRY to introduce them. I certainly don't try to introduce pointless little 'intersections' that lead nowhere and just bog down play. I can create a break in the tension in a fun and interesting way instead, or the players can do that.
That's fine. Disagreement makes the world go 'round and we all have different opinions, likes and dislikes, desires, etc. As for Bombadil, I don't think it was cut because it was a side track. I think it was cut because the movie was already 257663 hours long and things had to be cut. :P
 

That's not correct though. To point number 1, 30+ years of play, I haven't seen any established fiction that would block all possible ways to accomplish the PC's goals, without B) being established in such a way that the player wouldn't be breaking the social contract with his declaration. An example of B would be if the campaign world didn't have barbarians. A player would be violating the social contract by declaring the goal in the first place.
But this still makes my point #1, the GM may block these actions on the basis of some GM-established fictional setting parameters which are of no consequence or interest to the player. Now, if the genre simply doesn't admit of 'northern barbarians' as a concept (there could be a couple flavors of these possibly) then its not a possible goal. This speaks more to the advantages of No Myth than anything else, IMHO. Though even in No Myth I could see a general genre "this just isn't part of the milieu" happening. Still, its a problem most identified with established settings. Middle Earth for example has no viking analogs. It could, but it is established cannon that there are none.

To point number 2, the DM is obliged by the social contract to do so. Not doing so is being an asshat and a bad DM.
And to that extent your concept of social contract at the table is consonant with Story Now, and we agree. That is still not a commonly, or certainly at least universally, held position though. I mean, when I discuss with you or other participants, I assume this is a broader discussion than [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]'s process of play vs AbdulAlhazred's process of play.

To point number 3, the DM really shouldn't be putting in things for himself. The DM's job is to provide an entertaining game for the players, so while yes, he can put in stuff that he thinks is interesting to the players, he is not going to be running the game with his own interests in mind, since that would also be a violation of the social contract.
Again, I think this is like point 2, we agree. Still, there are many, probably MOST GMs who play in a fairly 'classic' process who would not agree with this. It certainly raises questions about sandboxes and such things for instance (though I think there are some nuances here too).

The DM isn't obliged or expected to ensure that the PC becomes the king of the barbarians, but he is obliged and expected to allow and support the attempt.

See, we really agree on a number of things. I still don't really agree with your notion of insisting that the game be a largely continuous narrative filled with lots of extra details that don't relate to anything immediately interesting, nor that skipping such is forcing choices on players. Otherwise we can agree on many things.
 

My point is that the bits I bolded contradict each other. "Sometimes dangerous" automatically means "interesting" because as soon as there's danger then either combat mechanics (for combat) or some other sort of hazard-resolution mechanics (for other hazards e.g. landslide or getting lost) come into play; with all the attendant risks of bad dice luck leading to someone dying or losing a pile of gear or whatever.
Meh, I don't think there's any big contradiction. The players have an agenda, a focus for play. If they travel for 5 months and its 'dangerous' in ways that aren't addressing that, then its just color. You can say, if asked, "Yeah, there was a time you almost got lost in a snowstorm, and then there was this time when you laid low for 3 days to avoid an Apache war party." As I said, its not MANDATORY that you skip all that, but it could well be dramatically more interesting to telescope it all into a transition (I call them interludes). My real point is, there's no fixed time period or distance which makes an elision from the narrative 'too much'.

In a futuristic game I can sort of see wealth being handled differently - part of the whole 'futuristic' thing - but in a typical coin-based medieval-fantasy setting I can't imagine not tracking wealth.
HoML does it. The PCs start with X amount of gear (like in 4e, there's a list with associated costs and they get 100sp to spend). From then on their wealth is basically abstract. They might, narratively, find '1000gp', but there's a simple chart that shows what fictional amounts equate to 'trivial', 'significant', and 'great' wealth/expenditure. The basic assumption is that treasures give the PCs 'significant' money, they can achieve significant expenses in the ordinary course of play, possibly with a check required, but not a really difficult one. If the fictional positioning of the game results in a PC becoming separated from his wealth (IE losing all his goods) then he's going to be stuck scraping to make a 'trivial' expense, but normally those are just assumed. 'great' expenses are going to require the characters to pool all their resources, or obtain some unusually rich source of money, and will require difficult checks. Its possible some PC might find this kind of check within his modest reach if, narratively, he's focused on and insured that he acquires wealth as a specific asset (this would probably constitute a major boon in my game, the equivalent of what you gain for going up a level in 4e). It does work. Clearly if the players are going to try to break that system, then the GM will have to push back, but I've never seen that be a real problem in actual games.

Besides, if people don't have wealth what are the thieves supposed to steal? :)
Oh, wealth exists, we are just not obsessed with tracking gold coins. Fictionally there's some specific amount of money that anyone possesses. If a player insists that his character count it out, then he can, but there's little point. If you pick a pocket I'll tell you if the haul you got was nothing, trivial, routine, good, or great maybe, but the net effect is still abstract. I mean, in 4e such a haul would simply be part of a treasure parcel and the picking of pockets would be an SC, probably covering many individual attempts.

I've no clue on any of that - it was your example to start with. :)
The relation to player agenda/stakes etc. is that they want to get to Tokyo and this is what's involved in getting there.
Right, and I acknowledged that its an open question what should be involved. It could be trivial, you asserted that it HAD to be played out.

In a setting where a journey from Washington to Tokyo is potentially dangerous and certainly time-consuming, when the players state they want their PCs to make this journey, a DM who says in response words to the effect of "OK, you're in Tokyo" is being far too easy on his PCs via bypassing all the risk and danger of the trip. (though he's also denying them some possible xp they might have accrued in dealing with said risks...)
This is filled with notions of play that are very specific to certain ways of running games. I merely assert that your 'universals' are not universal at all.

Just because the players say they want to go to Tokyo doesn't mean the PCs have to get there right now, or even this session.

Your point about presenting the PCs' experience without appreciable gaps is also valid...I hate it when something (e.g. research or item-crafting or whatever) becomes relevant later and players want to retcon into gaps and say "Oh, I could have done it during those four months of travel it took us to get here". I reply with something like "You can't have done it then because you didn't think of it then", and boom: instant argument. Bleah.

I've learned that the way to prevent this is to a) not leave big gaps behind whenever possible, and b) get players to tell you clearly what their PCs are doing during downtime, at least in general terms.

Lanefan

Yeah, well, I wouldn't generally do such a retcon either, but I don't feel a need to build my campaign around avoiding the opening. I just tell the player that doing so would be relying on knowledge of the future they didn't have back then. I guess you could also go back and retcon in a portent or something if you wanted. I might go along with that sort of thing if it was really apropos (IE your character has an established history/backstory/associations that make that plausible on the face of it).

As I said to Maxperson, I just feel like my general rule is 'zero added extraneous things along the way' is a valid option and the option that is at least a consistent rule I can follow. OTOH I am not known for being 100% consistent, I might add something in the middle of the Tokyo trip if it seems like it would be interesting and relevant, and dramatically 'works'.
 

That's fine. Disagreement makes the world go 'round and we all have different opinions, likes and dislikes, desires, etc. As for Bombadil, I don't think it was cut because it was a side track. I think it was cut because the movie was already 257663 hours long and things had to be cut. :P

I agree, it was cut because of time, and it was the LEAST relevant part of the story, so it was cut first and both directors made the same call. I would have loved it to have been there myself, but I'm not a film maker. In games I try to also avoid similar digressions, as a rule. I figure we can always make up some other characters and go back and explore different material in the next campaign if we want. This is one reason I have tended to keep using the same setting over and over, the roads not taken are still there.
 

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