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What is *worldbuilding* for?

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is why I brought up popularity. I think the proof is in pudding here. In my view 4E did go very hard in the direction of balance by encounter. And I think that pretty obviously drove away a lot of fans. Now they seem to be trying a middle approach all around. Not just in terms of daily balance versus encounter balance; but a much more moderate approach to balance in general (just look at Mearls comment on Fireball). I'd say this is a much healthier approach for long term. You are guys are arguing for moving hard in the direction of one particular preference. But the problem is D&D is not a single serve game. You are making a meal for lots of people and they tend to have mixed preferences.

The reason this made 4E a problem at my table when it came out, was we could only every get about 1/4th of the group enthused about it. Now that 1/4th was very enthused. But the rest just rwere not. And this was at a table that isn't afraid to play all kinds of games.
I disagree. Firstly, popularity is a terrible metric for discussing ability balance points. It's irrelevant.

Second, 4e's issues were not because of being encounter balanced. It was the way they choose the balance, the confused messaging about that balance, and some other business choices they made at the time. 4e had communication issues that contributed to it's loss, it's not valid to point that on encounter balance.

And this proves out with 5e, which has a number of popular encounter balanced features/classes. Monks, warlocks, barbarians, etc.

So, no, I disagree that the popularity of 4e had very much at all to do with how it balanced abilities, but lots to do with how it communicated that balance.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is why I brought up popularity. I think the proof is in pudding here. In my view 4E did go very hard in the direction of balance by encounter. And I think that pretty obviously drove away a lot of fans. Now they seem to be trying a middle approach all around. Not just in terms of daily balance versus encounter balance; but a much more moderate approach to balance in general (just look at Mearls comment on Fireball). I'd say this is a much healthier approach for long term. You are guys are arguing for moving hard in the direction of one particular preference. But the problem is D&D is not a single serve game. You are making a meal for lots of people and they tend to have mixed preferences.

The reason this made 4E a problem at my table when it came out, was we could only every get about 1/4th of the group enthused about it. Now that 1/4th was very enthused. But the rest just rwere not. And this was at a table that isn't afraid to play all kinds of games.
I disagree. Firstly, popularity is a terrible metric for discussing ability balance points. It's irrelevant.

Second, 4e's issues were not because of being encounter balanced. It was the way they choose the balance, the confused messaging about that balance, and some other business choices they made at the time. 4e had communication issues that contributed to it's loss, it's not valid to point that on encounter balance.

And this proves out with 5e, which has a number of popular encounter balanced features/classes. Monks, warlocks, barbarians, etc.

So, no, I disagree that the popularity of 4e had very much at all to do with how it balanced abilities, but lots to do with how it communicated that balance.
 

What on earth are you taking about now? Abilities in 2e are on a daily reset


.

I am talking about how 1e and 2E balances classes over the campaign Magic Users started out weak, but had some truly powerful abilities later, when they reached higher levels. Classes even advanced at different rates. That is all about balance over the campaign.
 


Second, 4e's issues were not because of being encounter balanced. It was the way they choose the balance, the confused messaging about that balance, and some other business choices they made at the time. 4e had communication issues that contributed to it's loss, it's not valid to point that on encounter balance.
.

There were a lot of things going on with 4E that made it unpopular. I think focusing a lot of balance considerations around encounters was a big part of it (but certainly not the only thing). I don't think the trouble was poor communication. But this is ground that has been gone over endlessly for years.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I disagree. Firstly, popularity is a terrible metric for discussing ability balance points.
...I disagree that the popularity of 4e had very much at all to do with how it balanced abilities, but lots to do with how it communicated that balance.
Oh, the warring against 4e had a lot to do with how it balanced abilities - that it dared to balance classes at all - because there's just this established base that thrives on such imbalances, and doesn't want to let go of them. Though, ultimately, that still doesn't prove much, since the failure of the line at that point had more to do with business & communications issues.

What on earth are you taking about now? Abilities in 2e are on a daily reset.
AD&D wasn't balanced within a given day, like 5e theoretically is balanced around a 6-8 encounter/2-3 short rest day. Rather, the theoretical balance was realized over the course of many levels, at least from 1st through name level, if not well into the teens. Some classes leveled at very different rates from others, races & classes had hard level limits, and some classes started strong and became irrelevant later, while others started weak & fragile, and became very powerful. At the end of the campaign, if you'd all played the same character throughout, the joys & pains of the above might theoretically have evened out and 'balanced' as a whole.

It was prettymuch nonsense. But in 1e, at least, I think EGG did make the point, at least obliquiely, a number of times, that it was intended.

It's an observation about how ability balance affects play and how. Encounter balance incentivizes more immediate play focus, stressing "in the moment" play vs strategic play. This is because you get your full suite (or most of it) at the start of every encounter/scene and so dying have to conserve or worry about the next encounter. 4e shows this play effect.
It shows a middle-of-the-road version of it, relative to traditional all-daily-focus D&D, anyway. 4e did have significant daily resources to manage, healing surges, item dailies, daily attack powers, as well as encounter resource (encounter attack powers, racial powers). The big difference between 4e & other versions of D&D was that the classes had about the same mix of encounter & daily resources, so the game wasn't much distorted by long or short 'days' - a robust, relativley simple solution to a 'problem' still treated by many as insoluble. FWIW.

A better example of encounter-based play would be the superficially similar version of Gamma World out at the same time. It did not have daily powers or surges. Instead, every resource was managed within the encounter, and recharged between encounters. That's 'origin' powers, artifacts (which could burn out after an encounter), mutations (which could change randomly), even (sorta) ammunition - and, of course, hps. Between encounters you just plain go all your hp back.

It did play differently, indeed. Pacing was irrelevant, in GW games, I'd often find we weren't even thinking about days spent doing things or travel times or the like, just wandering around the wasteland, encountering stuff. ;) Very beer & pretzels. Fun for it's own sake, not too serious.

Daily balance means abilities recharge on the day, not the encounter. This incentivizes more strategic play, where immediate expenditure is balanced both against current events and possible footie events. 2e/3e show this in play, or break with "5 minute workday" issues.
Traditoinal D&D was that other extreme: all about managing the day and resources that take at least a day to re-gain. Much more serious, challenge-oriented, fun is an emergent property.

Not really much need to go into explaning that paradigm, the hard part is usually getting any acknowledgement that there are other paradigms. ;)

Neither is better or worse, but they have opposing incentives and that should be recognized.
4e was arguably and attempt at that. It was between the two extremes - it even /tried/ to encentivize longer days with milestone-recharging resources, like action points (and, earlier, item-daily limits).
You could get by without worrying too much about daily resources - you'd 'burn out' faster, in all likelihood, and you'd be less effective, overall, but you could do it and the game was still playable.
You could pay careful attention to such resources and push through a grueling day to 'win' a time-restricted scenario, the individual battles might have to be a little less interesting a litle more systematic in approach, and you might opt into skill challenges to avoid or reduce the difficulty of some of them if you could engineer such opportunities.
You could play some 'day's one way, some the others, scenarious and pacing could be varied from table to table, or within a single encounter, and class balance wouldn't suffer.

That's it. Love whichever you want; I've liked them all.
Agreed!
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Do you have trouble with responding to a post one time?

There were a lot of things going on with 4E that made it unpopular. I think focusing a lot of balance considerations around encounters was a big part of it (but certainly not the only thing). I don't think the trouble was poor communication. But this is ground that has been gone over endlessly for years.

I dont think it has, actually. That 4e is encounter balanced is not something I've ever seen as a complaint. On the other hand, people complaining about how our failed to do a good job of explaining the changes is. On the gripping hand, most complaints about 4e revolve around HOW 4e did its encounter balancing.

Nope, your job to show that it is a good metric. Dilation why popularity is a good metric for comparing the ability balance points of, say, 1e and 5e. They have very different balance points, so popularity should be a good indicator of something, right?


I am talking about how 1e and 2E balances classes over the campaign Magic Users started out weak, but had some truly powerful abilities later, when they reached higher levels. Classes even advanced at different rates. That is all about balance over the campaign.

You clearly aren't picking up what's being put down if you think that's at all relevant for how there are different ways ability use in game is balanced by recharge mechanics and the repercussions of each. Quadratic wizard; linear fighter may be a design ethic you prefer (and that's awesome), but it doesn't speak to how a game has different play incentives if it has spells recharge per encounter or per day.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Often in this thread I have found myself agreeing with you, but I don't think this is one of those times. Overall, people are not afraid of game analysis; they are afraid of being accused of "badwrongfun" or having a game style that the game theory deems "inferior." I am not opposed to descriptive game theory, but the problem is that a lot of the Ron Edwards/Forge/GNS discussion came across as being prescriptive and laden with value judgments about particular game styles. (Or with Ron Edwards accusing gamers in the history of roleplaying as suffering from brain damage. Sorry, but that isn't the person whose theories should be lauded and used.)
I've not read all of his stuff and likely never will, but what of it I have seen consistently held a tone of condescension verging into arrogance at times.

This sounds nice and all, but sadly correlation does not equal causation. Even then, I don't think that a GM's "fun" in worldbuilding necessarily correlates to the resultant fun for the players.
Not every time - nothing in this hobby is true every time - but I think it clearly shifts the odds somewhat: if a DM has fun building her world that sense of fun and enthusiasm is naturally going to radiate to the players once she starts running games in said world. Conversely, a DM who isn't so keen on the world she's running (e.g. she's running in a prepublished world that she hasn't had time to tweak to her own tastes) is likely going to project that lack of enthusiasm onto her table once play begins. Either way, the enthusiasm or lack thereof projected by the DM with regards to the setting is going to set a tone for the game, like it or not.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
AD&D wasn't balanced within a given day, like 5e theoretically is balanced around a 6-8 encounter/2-3 short rest day. Rather, the theoretical balance was realized over the course of many levels, at least from 1st through name level, if not well into the teens. Some classes leveled at very different rates from others, races & classes had hard level limits, and some classes started strong and became irrelevant later, while others started weak & fragile, and became very powerful. At the end of the campaign, if you'd all played the same character throughout, the joys & pains of the above might theoretically have evened out and 'balanced' as a whole.

It was prettymuch nonsense. But in 1e, at least, I think EGG did make the point, at least obliquiely, a number of times, that it was intended.
I don't mind this sort of long-term balance at all, and disagree with the "pretty much nonsense" claim. :)

It shows a middle-of-the-road version of it, relative to traditional all-daily-focus D&D, anyway. 4e did have significant daily resources to manage, healing surges, item dailies, daily attack powers, as well as encounter resource (encounter attack powers, racial powers). The big difference between 4e & other versions of D&D was that the classes had about the same mix of encounter & daily resources, so the game wasn't much distorted by long or short 'days' - a robust, relativley simple solution to a 'problem' still treated by many as insoluble. FWIW.
A simple solution perhaps, but at cost of a bunch of other things not least of which is clear mechanical distinction between classes; and there being no "starter" mechanics-lite or mechanics-absent classes. Also, with everything resetting overnight any sort of long-term resource management went out the window, and 5e has sadly perpetuated this issue.

Lan-"finding myself wondering what game-mechanical balance of any kind has to do with worldbuilding"-efan
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Oh, the warring against 4e had a lot to do with how it balanced abilities - that it dared to balance classes at all - because there's just this established base that thrives on such imbalances, and doesn't want to let go of them. Though, ultimately, that still doesn't prove much, since the failure of the line at that point had more to do with business & communications issues.

AD&D wasn't balanced within a given day, like 5e theoretically is balanced around a 6-8 encounter/2-3 short rest day. Rather, the theoretical balance was realized over the course of many levels, at least from 1st through name level, if not well into the teens. Some classes leveled at very different rates from others, races & classes had hard level limits, and some classes started strong and became irrelevant later, while others started weak & fragile, and became very powerful. At the end of the campaign, if you'd all played the same character throughout, the joys & pains of the above might theoretically have evened out and 'balanced' as a whole.

It was prettymuch nonsense. But in 1e, at least, I think EGG did make the point, at least obliquiely, a number of times, that it was intended.

It shows a middle-of-the-road version of it, relative to traditional all-daily-focus D&D, anyway. 4e did have significant daily resources to manage, healing surges, item dailies, daily attack powers, as well as encounter resource (encounter attack powers, racial powers). The big difference between 4e & other versions of D&D was that the classes had about the same mix of encounter & daily resources, so the game wasn't much distorted by long or short 'days' - a robust, relativley simple solution to a 'problem' still treated by many as insoluble. FWIW.

A better example of encounter-based play would be the superficially similar version of Gamma World out at the same time. It did not have daily powers or surges. Instead, every resource was managed within the encounter, and recharged between encounters. That's 'origin' powers, artifacts (which could burn out after an encounter), mutations (which could change randomly), even (sorta) ammunition - and, of course, hps. Between encounters you just plain go all your hp back.

It did play differently, indeed. Pacing was irrelevant, in GW games, I'd often find we weren't even thinking about days spent doing things or travel times or the like, just wandering around the wasteland, encountering stuff. ;) Very beer & pretzels. Fun for it's own sake, not too serious.

Traditoinal D&D was that other extreme: all about managing the day and resources that take at least a day to re-gain. Much more serious, challenge-oriented, fun is an emergent property.

Not really much need to go into explaning that paradigm, the hard part is usually getting any acknowledgement that there are other paradigms. ;)

4e was arguably and attempt at that. It was between the two extremes - it even /tried/ to encentivize longer days with milestone-recharging resources, like action points (and, earlier, item-daily limits).
You could get by without worrying too much about daily resources - you'd 'burn out' faster, in all likelihood, and you'd be less effective, overall, but you could do it and the game was still playable.
You could pay careful attention to such resources and push through a grueling day to 'win' a time-restricted scenario, the individual battles might have to be a little less interesting a litle more systematic in approach, and you might opt into skill challenges to avoid or reduce the difficulty of some of them if you could engineer such opportunities.
You could play some 'day's one way, some the others, scenarious and pacing could be varied from table to table, or within a single encounter, and class balance wouldn't suffer.

Agreed!

Balancing classes isn't relevant to the points about how ability recharges are balanced. They are separate issues altogether. You can have class balance regardless of how abilities are balanced with respect to encounter vs day.

4e is also pretty strongly encounter balanced. Yes, it had some daily recharge abilities, but those had little to no effect on individual encounters -- at most healing surges were a daily resource that influenced play, but most play never ran the risk of exhausting healing surges, so it was largely a moot consideration for how you addressed play. I contend that play that seriously focused on the few daily resources was the exception to the rule that they largely didn't matter much in play. I ran 4e for a few years before moving to roll and keep hacks for a few years, so I'm speaking to my experience and to what I saw/read on the boards at the time. Hording surges wasn't a strong play tactic -- they were almost always better as hitpoints outside of a few classes that used them to power abilities.
 

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