How Would you Fix Broken Power: Beguiling Strands

[MwaO]

Assuming this



is in response to this.

The whole thread. It really is just you will be burning standard actions on Wizard powers and you only have so many of them.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The whole thread. It really is just you will be burning standard actions on Wizard powers and you only have so many of them.

So progressively less of a problem starting as low as third, and once you have your full complement of 4 encounters & 4 dailies at 20th, you should hardly use at wills, anyway?

 

[Garthanos]

The whole thread. It really is just you will be burning standard actions on Wizard powers and you only have so many of them.

If I understand this you are saying wizards encounters and dailies are going to take up most of the action economy past really low levels - so having an at-will that is comparatively over powered (or even oppositionally if most of the others are meh) but still quits being used mid heroic isnt a big worry because it is a short transition in the game?

 

[MwaO]

So progressively less of a problem starting as low as third, and once you have your full complement of 4 encounters & 4 dailies at 20th, you should hardly use at wills, anyway?

Right. But way before then even, especially since Beguiling Strands is post-themes. A Wizard with say Order Adept, a level 1/3/7 can have 4 good standard action encounter powers.

I'm not saying they won't get used - Beguiling Strands can be a really effective setup for a Wizard Daily in an AP sequence. Just having a 5th best power for an encounter, maybe 6th with daily...is still a power not getting a lot of use.

 

[The Human Target]

Yeah, the push is really only going to be used as a set up move for an area attack with an action point or in a situation with dangerous terrain.

There are going to be a lot of situations where pushing all the melee enemies away from your melee allies is actually going to be a terrible idea.

It's a nice power.

It should probably be a standard type of controller at-will.

Later 4e controller powers do tend to be better in general, because the early ones are pretty crap.

But it's not overpowered.

Switching it to hit allies is probably going to guarantee it never gets chosen.

 

[Garthanos]

Thunderwave is one my wizard player already picks ... he also picked the enlarge spell feat (which at least cannot affect Beguiling Strands)
If he had that really strong wisdom secondary (he doesn't have that) he could probably have the push distance the same and by sacrificing a bit of damage he can choose toget an area of 4

In other words using supplemental feats and if you are strongly increasing wisdom (ie after you put a lot into it) and probably AFTER you reach the level that at wills are unlikely to be used, then maybe Thunderwave isnt silly in comparison. but since its not ally friendly.

Why in hell would someone take Thunderwave?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It is a great at-will. Most decent encounters are still better than it because they include a damage roll.

Can be made a lot uglier though, and since it gives such a wide area of party friendly push it is just begging to be the sauce on my Wall of Fire, or Stinking Cloud. Its very easy to increase the area, and to increase the distance pushed. Probably not too many ways to increase the damage, but that just isn't the point.

Anyway, tossing all the bad guys away from your allies just about when they've managed to achieve some tactical advantage really is gold though. I just found this power to be an 'easy mode' that Wizard gradually got put in over time, capped with Essentials and its rewrites of encounter powers, etc.

Beguiling Strands isn't really OP, but it has some negative characteristics. I wouldn't have put this kind of design into the game.

There's really no tracking. Most of the time, die instantly. Rarely, basically bloodied.

Which is of course why mostly people just made that the rule, give minions a nominal damage amount that they can take and only be bloodied. Any bloodied minion dies instantly after that (just like a classic minion). Generally you have to add about 5 points per tier to the threshold. It wants to be JUST enough that any random at-will probably won't kill every minion reliably, but one that the player spent some resources tweaking WILL.

 

[The Human Target]

That's the issue right there.

Thunderwave blows.

Close blast three, effects allies, Vs Fort, thunder damage, and a rider dependent on Wisdom.

It's at best a pick for a human wizard with an extra at will to burn.

 

[Garthanos]

It's at best a pick for a human wizard with an extra at will to burn.

That is how the player uses it... he is indeed a human with three.

Thing I see is situationally it can have value until along comes Beguiling strands, which is like having the super expertise feats... which blow out a bunch of others that had flavor or situational value. Instead of adding options they effectively take them away (or with a player less tapped in to optimizing, build traps of them)

 

[MwaO]

Can be made a lot uglier though, and since it gives such a wide area of party friendly push it is just begging to be the sauce on my Wall of Fire, or Stinking Cloud. Its very easy to increase the area, and to increase the distance pushed. Probably not too many ways to increase the damage, but that just isn't the point.

Sure. But I generally prefer area burst powers that can be enlarged with Enlarge Spell. And Freezing Burst slides and if your party cooperates, generally things work out ok.

Which is of course why mostly people just made that the rule, give minions a nominal damage amount that they can take and only be bloodied. Any bloodied minion dies instantly after that (just like a classic minion). Generally you have to add about 5 points per tier to the threshold. It wants to be JUST enough that any random at-will probably won't kill every minion reliably, but one that the player spent some resources tweaking WILL.

Only problem I have with that is there are effects out there that are 1-2 hp of damage and involve double-taps. It really isn't at all hard to keep track of. Most minions get instantly killed and then that's that.