D&D 2E How to Convert High-Level 2e Spellcasters to 5e?

[L R Ballard]

I’m converting three adventures from D&D’s 2nd edition to its 5th. Almost done with the NPCs—only high-level spellcasters remain.

And they’re some big names in the Forgotten Realms: Elminster (26th-level wizard), Khelben (26th-level wizard) and the avatars of Azuth (22nd-level wizard) and Myrkul (23rd-level wizard).

That’s just four examples. There are others.

Keep in mind that the conversions may appear in the DMs Guild. The conversions should have an acceptable rationale as their basis.

How would you convert the NPCs to 5e?

1. Cap the levels at 20?

2. Present your own interpretation of spell progressions?

3. Base the conversion from a reference monster in the 5e MM?

4. Use an existing resource, perhaps something from the DMs Guild, to base conversions from?

5. Something else?

 

[CapnZapp]

I’m converting three adventures from D&D’s 2nd edition to its 5th. Almost done with the NPCs—only high-level spellcasters remain.

And they’re some big names in the Forgotten Realms: Elminster (26th-level wizard), Khelben (26th-level wizard) and the avatars of Azuth (22nd-level wizard) and Myrkul (23rd-level wizard).

That’s just four examples. There are others.

Keep in mind that the conversions may appear in the DMs Guild. The conversions should have an acceptable rationale as their basis.

How would you convert the NPCs to 5e?

1. Cap the levels at 20?

2. Present your own interpretation of spell progressions?

3. Base the conversion from a reference monster in the 5e MM?

4. Use an existing resource, perhaps something from the DMs Guild, to base conversions from?

5. Something else?

Ignore all details of previous stats.

Then assign a CR based on the adventure (its level).

Build from there.

 

[L R Ballard]

Ignore all details of previous stats.

Then assign a CR based on the adventure (its level).

Build from there.

Thanks. Ed Greenwood is the author. The adventures are intended for characters of levels 5 through 9.

To your point, the levels of the avatars seem high to me. In Greenwood's defense, early on, the PCs aren't expected to fight the avatars. The avatar action is supposed to be narrated rather than played. But that doesn't satisfy me.

I think Greenwood intends for the friendly wizards to serve as mentors and quest givers rather than opponents. He wants Elminister and Khelben to be feared and respected. Would that make a difference?

 

[L R Ballard]

Ignore all details of previous stats.

Then assign a CR based on the adventure (its level).

Build from there.

Most of the conversions retain as much of the originals as possible: magic items, spells, etc.

Would anyone be offended if a conversion didn't do some of the NPCs over 20th level according to the precise levels of the originals?

 

[Gladius Legis]

Those NPCs would be 20th-level spellcasters, as that is the drop-dead maximum for 5e.

What you could do to increase their CR over 20 would be to (a) increase their key stat above 20, and/or (b) give them Epic Boon abilities (DMG p. 232). Some appropriate Epic Boons to give them would be High Magic, Quick Casting, Spell Mastery and Spell Recall.

 

[cbwjm]

For the two chosen, I'd just use the Archmage as a basis for the characters base stats and then level up the spellcasting to level 20 (I think that gives them extra spell slots for 6th and 7th level). For their additional power, that can come from their chosen abilities (I think immunity to certain spells and silver fire). I wouldn't worry too much about extending the spellcasting table with additional spell slots for levels above level 20.

You may want to do the same for the avatars, however, they should have a number of additional features and some abilities that go past 20 due to being the avatars of the two gods.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I’m converting three adventures from D&D’s 2nd edition to its 5th. Almost done with the NPCs—only high-level spellcasters remain.

And they’re some big names in the Forgotten Realms: Elminster (26th-level wizard), Khelben (26th-level wizard) and the avatars of Azuth (22nd-level wizard) and Myrkul (23rd-level wizard).

That’s just four examples. There are others.

Keep in mind that the conversions may appear in the DMs Guild. The conversions should have an acceptable rationale as their basis.

How would you convert the NPCs to 5e?

1. Cap the levels at 20?

2. Present your own interpretation of spell progressions?

3. Base the conversion from a reference monster in the 5e MM?

4. Use an existing resource, perhaps something from the DMs Guild, to base conversions from?

5. Something else?

So the levels of these characters have fluctuated quite a bit in older editions already.

If you look at what is gained at level 21+ in earlier editions, other than spell progression tables, most of them could be converted to the boon system in place in 5e. That is, you max the NPC at 20th level, then add whatever appropriate extra abilities you think it important.

 

[L R Ballard]

Those NPCs would be 20th-level spellcasters, as that is the drop-dead maximum for 5e.

Right. And I put a party of five 11th-level characters up against an 18th-level CR 12 Archmage (MM 5e 342) after reading CapnZapp's post. The encounter is of medium-level difficulty. It looks like a party hostile to Elminster would have one round. Then he may seek help from the Symbul or Khelben, both of equivalent level to Elminster. The addition of a second 18th-level spellcaster makes the encounter deadly for a party of 5 11th-level characters.

What you could do to increase their CR over 20 would be to (a) increase their key stat above 20, and/or (b) give them Epic Boon abilities (DMG p. 232). Some appropriate Epic Boons to give them would be High Magic, Quick Casting, Spell Mastery and Spell Recall.

Nice. For the past year, I've been focused on creating approximately 240 lower-level NPCs. Only recently has the phrase "Epic Boon" appeared before my eyes while researching online.

The 5e DMG reads that one can award epic boons every 30,000 XP after 355,000 XP (DMG 5e 231). Are there official, published XP tables for characters beyond 20th? Anyone made sense of the math on XP progression?

 

[L R Ballard]

For the two chosen, I'd just use the Archmage as a basis for the characters base stats and then level up the spellcasting to level 20 (I think that gives them extra spell slots for 6th and 7th level).

Yes, the Archmage is the template I chose. I'll substitute that spell list with the ones Ed provides for Elminster and Khelben in the 2e Hall of Heroes, which also lists each NPC's base stats.

For their additional power, that can come from their chosen abilities (I think immunity to certain spells and silver fire). I wouldn't worry too much about extending the spellcasting table with additional spell slots for levels above level 20.

Agreed. Initially, I thought about extending the spell slots, but that's speculative. It makes sense for the conversion to stick to official sources. If DMs want to modify from there, they can.

You may want to do the same for the avatars, however, they should have a number of additional features and some abilities that go past 20 due to being the avatars of the two gods.

Got it. The trick is to make them beatable adversaries for the PCs. I ran this series in the late 1980s for my friends. They wished they'd been able to fight the avatar of Bane in the first adventure, but that's scripted. So, I'm trying to keep Bane's avatar beatable. But I'll look at some added features or abilities--starting with the epic boon list mentioned previously.

 

[Gladius Legis]

The 5e DMG reads that one can award epic boons every 30,000 XP after 355,000 XP (DMG 5e 231). Are there official, published XP tables for characters beyond 20th? Anyone made sense of the math on XP progression?

I haven't seen any tables.

I do know 30,000 XP is the distance betweel levels 15 and 16, and 16 and 17. To compare, going from level 19 to 20 takes 50,000 XP. So you gain Epic Boons at a faster rate than you gain your final levels if you award them by XP.