D&D 2E How to Convert High-Level 2e Spellcasters to 5e?

dave2008

Legend
Thanks for the link. I like the build. If I may ask--you're, of course, under no obligation to reply--how long did it take to convert Elminster from 3e?

I don't remember explicitly, but it takes me longer to make a PC type NPC than a typical monster, and spell casters longer still. I start by finding any previous stat blocks (I try to get one from every edition) and build form there. So general guess: research 1-2 hrs, then 1-2 hours to draft it, and .5-1hr to finalize and check the math + maybe another 1-2 hrs to make unique equipment. Now, I already head a template for epic level spell caster NPCs when I did Elminster, so I think it took about 50-75% longer the first time I made an epic NPC caster (to pick feats, features, etc.)
 

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L R Ballard

Explorer
The 5e way is distinctly different from the 3e way.
Not only does the edition "reset" NPC levels to maybe 5-10 levels lower than the 3e inflation, it considerably simplifies them.

Agreed. My goal has been to learn the 5e way by doing the conversion. The 5e NPCs are simpler builds than the 3e NPC builds. The simplicity of 5e makes it easier for people to start designing and playing, which has probably contributed to the success of the fifth edition.

If and only if the NPC is intended as a combat target is it appropriate to create unique stats. Even then, just drop 75% to 90% of the 3e character's abilities..

That’s a reasonable approach. The avatars serve as combatants for the adventurers. Their stats appear in the 3e Faiths and Pantheons, so I can look for abilities there.

Otherwise "Archmage" will do just fine. (In actual combat, an Archmage will easily die in the first round of combat even to heroes 5-10 levels lower, so it makes for a poor combat stat line).

I use an Excel calculator to see the challenge rating for various encounters. An archmage is a “hard” encounter for a party of five 8th-level adventurers, deadly for a party of four. My sense is that, with a few rounds for the archmage to prepare, the challenge rating is accurate. In practice, though, a well-prepared and coordinated party that gets initiative can drop an archmage in a round.

Even the specialist (school) wizards of Volo's are better and more inspired than the dull Archmage block of the MM.

Yes, and, after picking up Volo’s, I started to use the specialist wizard templates as the bases for NPC wizard builds in FRE2. The illusionist and the evoker have been used so far, though I’m taking care that the spells Greenwood lists for a wizard NPC indeed recommend using a specialist template of a given kind.

If the named NPC is to face the heroes in combat, I think the best course of action is to create a unique stat block; and invent two or three cool powers it and nobody else has. Look to end bosses in existing modules for guidance - Strahd and Ras Nsi are not off-the-counter stats blocks. One gets bonus hp, the other gets bonus AC.

If the NPC is meant to face the whole party alone you need a Solo, and then you don't need just to bend the 5e framework, you need to break it.

It may be too early in the conversion for me to build the end bosses, then. The Excel CR calculator I wrote is almost done, but it has not been tested for exactness. All the CRs of 240-plus NPCs need calculating or recalculating. I also need a better idea of how much XP an average group will have when facing a given end boss. That will tell me how to write a unique stat block so that the NPC presents a well-balanced challenge. It appears that giving the end boss unique powers will add mystery and authenticity to the final combat. It’s a question of where to set the CR. But to do that well, I first need to test the Excel CR calculator. . . .

Before returning to high-level NPC end-boss drafts, I’ll have a look at Strahd and Ras Nsi.

Thanks for the insights.
 

L R Ballard

Explorer
Not a broad comment (as others have covered it), but one thought on the HP issue: having substantially more hit points for such major Wizard NPCs shouldn’t be a problem in terms of the fiction if you consider part of those to reflect the previous edition’s array of magical and divine protections. If a given character has more HP in a conversion than would be expected but otherwise has various defenses, simply handwave those extra HP as part of those defenses (the classic Gygaxian “high level HP as partly luck and blessings”).

Thanks for the comment. I'm satisfied with the way the wizard NPCs will stat out. The conversion of Elminster linked to by dave2008 is agreeable to me. As I wrote earlier, I'm all for NPC builds of powerful NPCs that evoke respect, and even some healthy fear, from the players.
 

L R Ballard

Explorer
I don't remember explicitly, but it takes me longer to make a PC type NPC than a typical monster, and spell casters longer still. I start by finding any previous stat blocks (I try to get one from every edition) and build form there. So general guess: research 1-2 hrs, then 1-2 hours to draft it, and .5-1hr to finalize and check the math + maybe another 1-2 hrs to make unique equipment. Now, I already head a template for epic level spell caster NPCs when I did Elminster, so I think it took about 50-75% longer the first time I made an epic NPC caster (to pick feats, features, etc.)

Those estimates sound reasonable enough for me to consider undertaking analogous builds for Elminster, Khelben, the Simbul, and a few others. I'll prioritize unique builds for the end bosses before returning to the potentially friendly NPCs. There is no deadline for this version of the conversion, so it's simply a matter of my scheduling the builds.
 
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L R Ballard

Explorer
Otherwise "Archmage" will do just fine. (In actual combat, an Archmage will easily die in the first round of combat even to heroes 5-10 levels lower, so it makes for a poor combat stat line). Even the specialist (school) wizards of Volo's are better and more inspired than the dull Archmage block of the MM.

While we're on the subject, clerics and priests are also spellcasters. The Avatar Trilogy has bunches of clerics and priests. The official, final 5e stuff appears not yet to have improved cleric NPCs builds as they have for wizard NPCs in Volo's. Any suggestions on where to look for inspired cleric builds?

This question is, of course, open to all respondents.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
While we're on the subject, clerics and priests are also spellcasters. The Avatar Trilogy has bunches of clerics and priests. The official, final 5e stuff appears not yet to have improved cleric NPCs builds as they have for wizard NPCs in Volo's. Any suggestions on where to look for inspired cleric builds?

This question is, of course, open to all respondents.
Can't recall off-hand any NPC with a clerical bend in official adventures, but it is among unique NPCs (statted up as a one-off monster rather than referring to a NPC stat block like priest or knight) I would start looking.
 

L R Ballard

Explorer
Can't recall off-hand any NPC with a clerical bend in official adventures . . . .

Of the few 5e adventures that I own, only Erky Timbers from The Sunless Citadel comes to mind. But his build is low level and generic.

"But it is among unique NPCs (statted up as a one-off monster rather than referring to a NPC stat block like priest or knight) I would start looking.

Thanks. I'll keep looking as I acquire sources. The specialist wizard builds from Volo's sometimes borrow abilities from the various specializations described in the PHB (PHB 5e 115-19). The NPC priest builds could be modified similarly, by selecting domain powers (PHB 5e 59-63) for them. The prestige classes from Faiths and Pantheons can provide ideas for Forgotten Realms-specific class features (FaP 182-213).
 
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