D&D 2E How to Convert High-Level 2e Spellcasters to 5e?

[Gladius Legis]

Another thing, if you choose to stat the NPCs out with monster blocks, rather than as PCs, they get higher proficiency bonuses than +6 if their CRs are past 20. Which alone makes them quite a bit more threatening.

 

[L R Ballard]

So the levels of these characters have fluctuated quite a bit in older editions already.

Right. I followed a 2e to 5e conversion guide that someone made by consulting with Morrus and others on EN World. That said, the CRs of the 5e builds still need to be tweaked. None of this conversion has been playtested and needs to be . . .

If you look at what is gained at level 21+ in earlier editions, other than spell progression tables, most of them could be converted to the boon system in place in 5e. That is, you max the NPC at 20th level, then add whatever appropriate extra abilities you think it important.

The extra hit points for higher levels always appealed to me in earlier editions.

I like the idea of the boon system. Using the suggestion of raising ability scores (DMG 5e 230) could lead to augmented hit points resulting from Constitution score increases.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Right. I followed a 2e to 5e conversion guide that someone made by consulting with Morrus and others on EN World. That said, the CRs of the 5e builds still need to be tweaked. None of this conversion has been playtested and needs to be . . .



The extra hit points for higher levels always appealed to me in earlier editions.

I like the idea of the boon system. Using the suggestion of raising ability scores (DMG 5e 230) could lead to augmented hit points resulting from Constitution score increases.

I’m not sure what you mean about the hit points. They capped the Hit Dice in AD&D so all you got were a couple of hit points.

But regardless of that, also keep in mind that the abilities NPCs and monsters get don’t have to be available to PCs. So a boon allowing them to be attuned to more magic items, or use multiple contingency spells wouldn’t be out of the question. For the specific characters you’re talking about, they are about the biggest exceptions to the rules there are. And because of the way the Realms have specifically modified the way magic works in world as each edition came out, you can realistically allow such abilities that only the chosen of Mystra gain. You really can go outside the norm quite a bit here, as far as Im concerned.

For epic NPCs like them, being met by such high level characters, and the fact that these NPCs aren’t typically designed to be foes, I don’t think you really need to be concerned about CRs much. I think that certain NPCs and monsters should be beyond the CR system, and not part of the usual approach that you’ll eventually be a high enough level to kill them.

I’d take a similar approach to Sauron, Gandalf, and others in LotR for example.

 

[L R Ballard]

I haven't seen any tables.

I do know 30,000 XP is the distance betweel levels 15 and 16, and 16 and 17. To compare, going from level 19 to 20 takes 50,000 XP. So you gain Epic Boons at a faster rate than you gain your final levels if you award them by XP.

Okay, cool. I'll see if I can deduce a mathematical progression from the existing XP table, then offer a reasonable number of epic boons to each NPC.

 

[L R Ballard]

Another thing, if you choose to stat the NPCs out with monster blocks, rather than as PCs, they get higher proficiency bonuses than +6 if their CRs are past 20. Which alone makes them quite a bit more threatening.

Anything CR 17 or higher is deadly for a party of five 11th-level characters.

 

[Li Shenron]

How would you convert the NPCs to 5e?

1. Cap the levels at 20?

2. Present your own interpretation of spell progressions?

3. Base the conversion from a reference monster in the 5e MM?

4. Use an existing resource, perhaps something from the DMs Guild, to base conversions from?

5. Something else?

1. Yes, and then I would add the "epic boons" from DMG.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

5. Yes see next.

My overall preference would be to design important NPCs using the same rules as PCs, but you can choose to design them as ad-hoc characters in a way similar to the NPCs in the monster manual. While the latter method yields easier-to-use results (because they avoid a lot of baggage), using PCs rules makes the design job easier since you follow a pattern.

Either way, for spellcasters the important things are to (a) stay faithful to their original set of spells and (b) replicate possible unique features they had in the previous edition.

(a) Spells in 5e are not the same as in 2e, but it shouldn't be a problem. If a 2e spell doesn't exist in 5e, try to see if there is another spell close enough to it. Also, you can probably ignore the issue entirely if it's related to low-level spells.
(b) If the original NPC had something special, I'd definitely want to carry it over to 5e, and I would probably just port it straight away in most cases. The exceptions that need some tinkering are abilities that break bounded accuracy (e.g. huge boosts to spells DCs or spell attacks will need to be toned down) or stuff that just doesn't apply to the current rules.

 

[aco175]

NPC monster stat blocks is the way to go. This way you can add cool powers that the classed PCs do not have access to and you can make them as powerful as you need to. Just make up powers to get the right feel for what you want/need. Need more HP, Great Health gives them d12 instead of d8 for HD. Need more spells, Signature Spell lets them cast something every round as a bonus spell. Etc..

The PCs can be awed at the power and never be able to get it themselves, unless you want to give it to them. Players may call foul, but that is the way the world runs and all the NPCs have these powers. I think it mostly makes them easier to play and not caught up in design like in 3e days when you tried to add a few levels of a class to the monster.

 

[L R Ballard]

I’m not sure what you mean about the hit points. They capped the Hit Dice in AD&D so all you got were a couple of hit points.

Let me preface this reply by noting that this conversion refers to the revised edition of the 2nd edition Player’s Handbook. The revision, published in 1995, wasn’t something I ran or played anything in; the next session that I ran was in the 3rd edition.

The revised 2nd edition seems to make several substantive changes to the mechanics of the original 2nd edition. Some things seem harder to do than they were.

Unfortunately, I don’t have the original 2nd edition books with me to compare. However, I remember the following technique for maxing out hit points:

Read a Manual of Bodily Health (DMG 2e rev. 231)

Wish up the Constitution score (DMG 2e rev. 16)

Thus, raise the Constitution score retroactively for the levels that permit the Con. bonus (PHB 2e rev. 21)

That was standard practice for our high-level characters.

 

[L R Ballard]

But regardless of that, also keep in mind that the abilities NPCs and monsters get don’t have to be available to PCs. So a boon allowing them to be attuned to more magic items, or use multiple contingency spells wouldn’t be out of the question. For the specific characters you’re talking about, they are about the biggest exceptions to the rules there are.

True. Creating unique abilities for NPCs sounds like fun. I’ll probably leave that to individual DMs, who can imagine precisely the kind of ability they’d like a certain NPC to have.

However, I’ll include famous spells known by the powerful wizards. For example, Elminster’s Evasion is a spell that Hall of Heroes refers to as “an enhanced and customized version of the contingency spell of which Elminster is quite proud” (30).

That spell goes in the conversion.

And because of the way the Realms have specifically modified the way magic works in world as each edition came out, you can realistically allow such abilities that only the chosen of Mystra gain. You really can go outside the norm quite a bit here, as far as Im concerned..

In the Avatar Trilogy, which I’m converting, Ed Greenwood describes powers available only to the chosen of Mystra. For example, his chosen wears a star pendant that confers special powers to the wearer (FRE1 5). The pendant’s powers have been converted.

Greenwood also introduces the party to an apprentice wizard who may one day serve as the Magister. Her name is Beluane Brighteyes. Her special power is protection by the demigod Azuth (FRE1 24). I’m translating the power as the ability of the chosen of Azuth to reroll a saving throw with advantage any time she misses the initial one. Limit one reroll per spell against which she suffers a missed save.

For epic NPCs like them, being met by such high level characters, and the fact that these NPCs aren’t typically designed to be foes, I don’t think you really need to be concerned about CRs much. I think that certain NPCs and monsters should be beyond the CR system, and not part of the usual approach that you’ll eventually be a high enough level to kill them.

I’d take a similar approach to Sauron, Gandalf, and others in LotR for example.

That sounds right. In the late 1980s, I didn’t stat out some of the powerful, regularly appearing NPCs for precisely that reason. Players simply knew not to mess with some allies.

The only reason I want to make sure the named friendly NPCs are powerful enough is so the players respect them. My old group played super characters. They used to boast that they could defeat the Knights of Myth Drannor, though they never actually fought them (Just imagine running a session for Conan O’Brien, and you’ll get a sense for how snarky they could be.). The possibility of hearing “I scoff” was high even when speaking with or about high-level NPCs in the Realms.

My goal is to make Elminster believable, not Sean Connery on an SNL Jeopardy! skit . . .

 

[dave2008]

I’m converting three adventures from D&D’s 2nd edition to its 5th. Almost done with the NPCs—only high-level spellcasters remain.

And they’re some big names in the Forgotten Realms: Elminster (26th-level wizard), Khelben (26th-level wizard) and the avatars of Azuth (22nd-level wizard) and Myrkul (23rd-level wizard).

That’s just four examples. There are others.

Keep in mind that the conversions may appear in the DMs Guild. The conversions should have an acceptable rationale as their basis.

How would you convert the NPCs to 5e?

1. Cap the levels at 20?

2. Present your own interpretation of spell progressions?

3. Base the conversion from a reference monster in the 5e MM?

4. Use an existing resource, perhaps something from the DMs Guild, to base conversions from?

5. Something else?

I converted Elminster here: 5e Epic Monster Updates: Humanoids

I converted his 3e stats from the Epic Level Handbook. To make him an epic level NPC I gave him the ability to multi-class past 20th level total (but not higher than that in one class), + epic boons, +epic equipment. I'm fairly happy with it.