D&D 5E Is Xanathars The New UA? AKA A Munchkins Book

[The Crimson Binome]

Druid player says, "I could cast healing spirit, everyone would recover approximately 35 hp, though I would lose one second level slot."

Wizard says, "I could cast rope trick, I would recover approximately 31 hp, the fighter 41 hp, the Bard 31hp and the Druid 36hp. Also, the fighter would recover Second Wind, Action Surge and their Combat Superiority Dice, the Bard gets back their Inspiration and the Druid recovers their wildshapes, though I would lose one second level slot, that I could recover immediately, along with another spell."

Fighter player says, "It would be nice if we could rest, but we don't have an hour. Once they realize that we took down those guards, they're going to be on high alert, and we'll never make it to through to the king."

Bard player says, "Yeah, and I'm out of hit dice anyway, after that dragon nearly ate me this morning."

Druid player says, "Great, I'll cast my spell then, because it only takes a minute and has absolutely no downsides."

 

[Dausuul]

The only thing I insta-banned was Healing Spirit. Out of combat it's effectively 10d6 (35) HP of healing for each member of the party. Its power level is far beyond other healing spells of similar or higher level.

I changed it to 10d6 healing and the caster (if out of combat and there's no pressure) can divide up the d6s however he likes. It's still a really good spell.

Yeah, I should have included healing spirit on the list of busted stuff. Not only is it busted as an out-of-combat healing option, but in combat it is both busted and silly. PCs form a conga line through the Magic Heal Place... or the tank just stands in it and invites the monsters to play whack-a-mole*.

[size=-2]*Until the DM gets fed up and has four monsters dogpile the tank, take them down, and hit them three times for three failed death saves and an autokill. This is not something I want to see the rules incentivize.[/size]

 

[Treantmonklvl20]

Fighter player says, "It would be nice if we could rest, but we don't have an hour. Once they realize that we took down those guards, they're going to be on high alert, and we'll never make it to through to the king."

Bard player says, "Yeah, and I'm out of hit dice anyway, after that dragon nearly ate me this morning."

Druid player says, "Great, I'll cast my spell then, because it only takes a minute and has absolutely no downsides."

I would say being out in the open for a minute is a downside. I would say that not recovering all the short rest recovery items is a downside.

Yes, there are downsides the other way as well. I am not arguing that Rope Trick is the superior out of combat recovery spell. I do argue that Rope Trick is a comparable out of combat recovery spell.

My point is that if there are comparable out of combat recovery spells in the PHB, the freak-out about Healing Spirit makes no sense.

Here's a list of the upsides/downsides. If I'm missing something, let me know.

Upsides:
Healing Spirit:
- takes only one minute to receive full healing benefit, can recieve partial benefit in less time
- Is only limited in use by 2nd level slots
- Heals more HP at low levels than a short rest

Rope Trick:
- Takes only one round to set up, after that it's 100% safe short rest
- Characters only need to spend as many HD as they need for HP recovery
- All short rest recovered abilities are renewed

Downsides:
Healing Spirit:
- Requires that all the healing be done in potentially dangerous locations
- Only recovers HP, if you used abilities, but did not lose HP, this gives you nothing

Rope Trick:
- Although the short rest occurs in safety, one hour of gametime passes, in some situations, this is costly
- HD recovery is limited by level, and half the maximum are recovered in a long rest.

The spells are obviously different, and obviously BOTH have downsides when compared to the other. My point is that if we aknowledge that they are similar in overall effectiveness once the downsides/upsides of each are considered, then the panic over Healing Spirit requires a more sober evaluation.

 

[Mistwell]

A lot of people don't play with wandering monsters, or their DMs don't use wandering monsters very often (despite pages and pages of wandering monster charts in the books). When you play with what is essentially an unwritten optional rule to not use wandering monsters most of the time, rope trick loses a LOT of utility. You can just rest in a cleared room for an hour without it, under those scenarios.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The spells are obviously different, and obviously BOTH have downsides when compared to the other. My point is that if we acknowledge that they are similar in overall effectiveness once the downsides/upsides of each are considered, then the panic over Healing Spirit requires a more sober evaluation.

You need two more points of comparison, to perform a reasonable evaluation: Taking a short rest without casting Rope Trick, and casting Prayer of Healing.

Rope Trick doesn't let you recover resources. It just allows you to exchange your existing resources (time and hit dice) with greater reliability. It increases the viability of taking a short rest in dangerous locations, where a short rest might otherwise be interrupted. But you spend the spell slot, and it doesn't actually make the rest take any less time, or give you any greater benefit from the hit dice you spend.

Prayer of Healing is the currently existing out-of-combat group-healing option. It directly converts spell slots into healing. Out of combat, it does what Healing Spirit does; and it establishes the baseline for how much more effective out-of-combat healing is allowed to be, compared to in-combat healing. The comparison is direct: Healing Spirit is ten times faster, and heals five times as many HP.

Healing Spirit gives benefits comparable to a short rest (with some trade-offs), at the sole expense of a spell slot. You spend only a spell slot, and everyone heals as though they had spent five hit dice, except they don't have to wait an hour or actually expend those hit dice. This is egregiously out of line with every other healing spell in the game.

 

[Mistwell]

Healing Spirit gives benefits comparable to a short rest (with some trade-offs), at the same expense of a spell slot. You spend only a spell slot, and everyone heals as though they had spent five hit dice, except they don't have to wait an hour or actually expend those hit dice. This is egregiously out of line with every other healing spell in the game.

I like how you put "egregiously" in italics. As if the word needed additional emphasis. Sorry, I meant emphasis.

 

[guachi]

Imagine a 5th level party.

That 5th level party has 4 members. A Wizard (con 14), a Fighter (con 14), a Bard (con 12) and a Druid (con 14).

Now, the party is in a tough fight. Lots of damage taken by PC's. Lots of resources used. PC's are in bad shape and need to recover before the next fight.

Druid player says, "I could cast healing spirit, everyone would recover approximately 35 hp, though I would lose one second level slot."

Wizard says, "I could cast rope trick, I would recover approximately 31 hp, the fighter 41 hp, the Bard 31hp and the Druid 36hp. Also, the fighter would recover Second Wind, Action Surge and their Combat Superiority Dice, the Bard gets back their Inspiration and the Druid recovers their wildshapes, though I would lose one second level slot, that I could recover immediately, along with another spell."

So the DM says, "OH MY GOD! That first spell sounds like it will break my game! I have to houserule it."

I still don't get it, and nobody has been able to explain to me why one of the above spells I describe is absolutely fine, and the other breaks the game.

I suspect it's because most players don't think of wizard spells as healing spells, so don't really consider it when evaluating healing spirit...

LOL. It's like you don't know the difference between one resource being spent - a 2nd level spell slot - and all those other resources being spent - lots of HD AND a 2nd level spell. Or that you don't realize that once the HD are spent they aren't coming back until a long rest. Or that you can often rest without needing a rope trick and you could get 35 HP Healing Spirit AND the HP from the HD and the other resources. Or that you can't tell the difference between one minute and 60 minutes.

If you can't tell the difference, you really shouldn't be writing guides for people.

 

[AmerginLiath]

A lot of people don't play with wandering monsters, or their DMs don't use wandering monsters very often (despite pages and pages of wandering monster charts in the books). When you play with what is essentially an unwritten optional rule to not use wandering monsters most of the time, rope trick loses a LOT of utility. You can just rest in a cleared room for an hour without it, under those scenarios.

Play with a Wandering Mobsters Chart. While everyone else is asleep, the mafia comes and breaks the outnumbered Coffeelock’s kneecaps to teach him a lesson. Next time he’ll be reacquainted with a long rest...a long rest with the fishes!

 

[The Crimson Binome]

LOL. It's like you don't know the difference between one resource being spent - a 2nd level spell slot - and all those other resources being spent - lots of HD AND a 2nd level spell. Or that you don't realize that once the HD are spent they aren't coming back until a long rest. Or that you can often rest without needing a rope trick and you could get 35 HP Healing Spirit AND the HP from the HD and the other resources. Or that you can't tell the difference between one minute and 60 minutes.

I wouldn't go that far. There are definitely situations where the party is down, and either Healing Spirit or Rope Trick would solve the problem. The comparison is not without some basis in actual practice.

It's just that, those situations where you could solve the problem with Rope Trick, aren't a good example of why Healing Spirit is broken. Healing Spirit is only really broken in situations where you don't have time or hit dice.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

As others have pointed out... Multiclassing (and Feats) are OPTIONAL. I'm sure that when the writers of the book were coming up with cool ideas, they were thinking of them as-is...with that being first and foremost. Then they probably spend a little bit of time thinking "Ok, what about using Feats?", and then looked for anything that would be obviously out of whack. Then they probably thought "Right, lets look at MC'ing this class..." and did some quick looking around and comparing. Again, as long as nothing jumped out as completely OP/unfair, great. Then they probably moved on to the next bit.

I REALLY doubt they spent days upon days trying to think of as many combinations of class/race/feat/spell. Because if they did, then we would see nothing but abilities that say "Stunning Thunder Smash (+1 damage)"...because adding just about anything else unique or cool would/could be used with some munchkinized combo.

Easiest fix? "No, we aren't using Xanathars". Problem solved.

^_^

Paul L. Ming