• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Arguments and assumptions against multi classing

5ekyu

Hero
Wait, are you saying that when you GM a point-buy superhero game that players are not allowed to explain their powers as the result of an extinct alien race, all but me?

Poor Kal-El. :mad:

No. Not at all.

I am saying that we have seen plenty of times where in point buy supers **certain types of players** feel entitled to insist they can work around the campaigns established tone and intended style (soft restrictions) by assuming they can invent an alien race with only abilities they want and every ability they want all tied into a nice neat package and wrapped with a bow.

The part of the post you just ignored (of course) was the term "tightly themed."

In some comics at certain times - the tone and style and the nature of super powers and characters allowed is wide open and the presence of casual aliens with bundles of "whatever powers i want" are as common as nth dimensional imps with naming issues and stage magicians with dyslexic tendencies and glowing green rocks.

In others, the tone and style presents a more limited scope of heroes with most/all the supers with a fairly tightly themed package of powers that are all related - often mostly seen as one power with a variety of different applications.

In a campaign the former would be fine with inventing a new alien race with a dial-a-mix of powers becausae none of the heroes is held to any sort of standard.

In the latter campaign, a fire mutant character would likely be told by the Gm and/or other players (depends on review process) that they cannot add to their character "seeing the future divination by dancing" during chargen as that does not fit any kind of tightly themed powers tone. In such a game the invented an alien race "grab-bag of what i want" likely also not acceptable as it violates the soft-restriction of the tone and style of the campaign that was established - even tho that is not expressed with any hard coded absolute list of every can do or every cant do. Hopefully the Gm had provided a few alien race options for them to use as examples in whatever resource of examples he provided *if* its acceptable.


Now, as we have seen on these threads, some might call that some form of "fragile campaign" and go all gagaga over a Gm being so weak in his GM-fu to incorporate such a concept... but of course, its not that... its a choice of tone or style the campaign is preferred for those playing it for this time and place.

With borderline cases decided by discussion, not absolute lines in the sand.

But, if kal-el was provided at the start as an acceptable example of the alien last survivor of... then certainly his cousin kara would be welcome just like all the other Sniptonians.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
No. Not at all.

I am saying that we have seen plenty of times where in point buy supers **certain types of players** feel entitled to insist they can work around the campaigns established tone and intended style (soft restrictions) by assuming they can invent an alien race with only abilities they want and every ability they want all tied into a nice neat package and wrapped with a bow.
I think they type of campaign you're running plays a role here. Is this a game with a tight-knit circle of regular players, or one where you're constantly bringing in new players? I think it obvious a new player brought into a game that's already running has to be the one to bend to the existing vision at the table. But, if this is a new game with your regular players, then the player bringing in the violating concept might not necessarily be in agreement with the tone the DM thinks has been established. The DM might need to ask how tightly toned the players actually think the game is.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Not to nit pick but a short rest after every fight isn’t typical. A short rest after every 2 fights maybe, but doubtful. My game is a short rest every 4-6 fights. What you are describing is a nova, just say so.

I have never seen or been in a game where you can take your warhorse into a dungeon, let alone have it live past the first or second encounter. Your horse has an average of 19 HP and various things can get you off it so you cant take the damage for it. I don’t see how it survives the first area attack in good shape at your level (6). I guess your group fails most group stealth checks no?



A troll can fit into many places a horse can’t, it’s shape is more malleable then a horse, but if your DM allows all the above I would have played a Paladin instead.

A Paladin gets an intelligent mount, so it acts on its own turns and you can communicate telepathically with it. Therefore you can prone them your shield then have your warhorse attack them with advantage for 2d6+4. In addition a Paladin can cast a spell with self as range and it affects both, so a Paladin can cast a smite spell on himself and can have his horse use the smite spell also. A Paladin on his mount is a holy terror.

A warhorse has these attacks also, RAW a PC can’t direct it to attack as it only has 3 action options and attack isn’t one. I would change that if you took the mounted combat feat. I would definitely talk to your DM about it as you have made a substantial investment in mounted combat.

The lance as a dueling weapon I consider an exploit, on horseback it is used across the second arm or rested on a shield in addition to being cradled under the arm. It requires Dueling is intended to reflect precision, a weapon condition that require you to be seated on a mount to me isn’t as intended. I would definitely not allow dueling there, that is IMO not RAI. But then I would also not allow a horse into a dungeon in most cases either, or would just have an intelligent enemy immediately try to dismount you or attack the horse, as most intelligent creatures would. Or set their reach weapons to receive a charge. I will ask Crawford though for what it’s worth about the lance though.

Edit- I checked the lance discussion and the rules for it RAW are absurd. RAW a halfling riding a dog can use a lance for D12 as a weapon since the lance doesn’t have the heavy property. With the dual wielder feat the same halfling could use 2 lances while mounted and attack with both from the back of his riding dog.

Yes there is a problem here. If your DM allows it though go for it!

A few things...

obviously campaigns differ. they have different degrees of intensity and attention to detail etc. they have different pacings. So as far as some of those above...

Short rest every fight - i can certainly see a campaign style where short rests or even long rests occur after **nearly** every fight if not all (whether or not that counts as "known" to the PCs or not.) It also depends on how one differentiates a single fight from an extended encounter. A classic cyberpunk style campaign is the "Blue Light Special" where the PCs are emergency rescue teams for eithe rhigh paying clients or part of a government outfit. They get a "code red" from a high price client, jet into the fray, extract their client and get back to base. That sets up the vast majority of their outings as one-and-done.

In such a campaign there would be obviously some times things get more complicated but for the vast majority of cases where they aren't the Gm would adjust his encounter balance efforts to take into account the "fully loaded - no hold back" aspects.

So, every one or every two or every three or two per long rest in a set of 6-8 are all just baselines that provide a consitent benchmark to help with the balancing - not right or wrong or RAW or non-RAW. Campaigns and groups define the game, not the other way around.

Mounts, warhorses, pets and other considerations...

Just two sessions ago in the weekly game i play in our group had our horses killed and our wagons stolen when four "gruesomes" (my PCs named for this homebrew monster type of my Gm) rolled into our caravan in thew hills and rolled us up pretty solidly so that we barely made it out with the gear on our backs and most of the PCs. they went for the horses first, since they were big enough to pull the wagons and that kept us from riding any of the wagons away. (For all of 5e's style of not so nitpicky about logistics (see spell component pouch and other examples) they really missed the boat by not including a first level equivalent of a "mount spell" for something as simple as routine travel needs.)

other campaigns i have seen "we tie the horse up outside the delve" and even days later when we come back out of the dungeon the horses are still there and we can begin the trek thru wandering monsters back to the city.

I once started in a supers campaign where the session started at the "scene of the criris" and (as it was explained to me) "that roleplaying part of *sitting in your secret ID at work and how fast do you get here when the alarm* we skip that now to save time" and that is not so much different from older days when "session starts at dungeon door" was not all that rare a bird. i did not stay with that particular supers campaign after the one session as it wasn't what i was after, but they had a blast and it lasted quite a while if i recall.

mechanically speaking...

lance
pro - 1d12 damage + reach
con - two handed unless nounted, disadvantage within 5' (tyhe most common melee range)

greataxe
pro 1d12 damage
con - heavy and two handed.

scratching my head to see how those are particularly any sort of majorly screwed between each other balance-wise.

Quick scan of mounted combat - dont see any special "add to lance" rules.

So, those two do not seem to me to be tragically imbalanced with each other. Do not see why a halfling wouldn't have access to a lance that can be used.

So maybe there is a problem with some class features causing whatever imbalance is believed to exist or a feat causing the imbalance but thats a horse of another color.
 

5ekyu

Hero
I think they type of campaign you're running plays a role here. Is this a game with a tight-knit circle of regular players, or one where you're constantly bringing in new players? I think it obvious a new player brought into a game that's already running has to be the one to bend to the existing vision at the table. But, if this is a new game with your regular players, then the player bringing in the violating concept might not necessarily be in agreement with the tone the DM thinks has been established. The DM might need to ask how tightly toned the players actually think the game is.

parts you snipped out from the post you quoted...

"In the latter campaign, a fire mutant character would likely be told by the Gm and/or other players (depends on review process)..."

and

"but of course, its not that... its a choice of tone or style the campaign is preferred for those playing it for this time and place."

If from that post you took a "gm chooses style and tone" absolutist position enough to feel suggesting the "GM might need to ask the players..." as opposed to assuming this as a group campaign anyway, then yeah, i rolled a 1 on my communication check.

But again, no matter what each game is at its core an agreement between participants. if i as a player dont agree with how the game is going to be run - i leave if its strong enough an opposition and unwavering. Similarly, if the players decide they want a different game to be run, i as Gm leave i leave if its strong enough an opposition and unwavering.

RPGs are born out of agreement and consent and collaboration.

But the "types" you mention are of course not exclusive. my games i run tend to have a core of older players i have run with for decades but we also try and bring in new players regularly. ideally at least one newcomer per campaign but sometimes more, sometimes less.

But we are not subject to any "store front" or "AL" organized play restriction to allow anyone to walk up and play anything they want and any walk-in sort of thing gets a pre-gen and later we discuss them creating a new character of their own if thats what they want. (That allows one-off guest stars without the hassle of the full session zero type work-in.)
 
Last edited:

smbakeresq

Explorer
A few things...

obviously campaigns differ. they have different degrees of intensity and attention to detail etc. they have different pacings. So as far as some of those above...

Short rest every fight - i can certainly see a campaign style where short rests or even long rests occur after **nearly** every fight if not all (whether or not that counts as "known" to the PCs or not.) It also depends on how one differentiates a single fight from an extended encounter. A classic cyberpunk style campaign is the "Blue Light Special" where the PCs are emergency rescue teams for eithe rhigh paying clients or part of a government outfit. They get a "code red" from a high price client, jet into the fray, extract their client and get back to base. That sets up the vast majority of their outings as one-and-done.

In such a campaign there would be obviously some times things get more complicated but for the vast majority of cases where they aren't the Gm would adjust his encounter balance efforts to take into account the "fully loaded - no hold back" aspects.

So, every one or every two or every three or two per long rest in a set of 6-8 are all just baselines that provide a consitent benchmark to help with the balancing - not right or wrong or RAW or non-RAW. Campaigns and groups define the game, not the other way around.

Mounts, warhorses, pets and other considerations...

Just two sessions ago in the weekly game i play in our group had our horses killed and our wagons stolen when four "gruesomes" (my PCs named for this homebrew monster type of my Gm) rolled into our caravan in thew hills and rolled us up pretty solidly so that we barely made it out with the gear on our backs and most of the PCs. they went for the horses first, since they were big enough to pull the wagons and that kept us from riding any of the wagons away. (For all of 5e's style of not so nitpicky about logistics (see spell component pouch and other examples) they really missed the boat by not including a first level equivalent of a "mount spell" for something as simple as routine travel needs.)

other campaigns i have seen "we tie the horse up outside the delve" and even days later when we come back out of the dungeon the horses are still there and we can begin the trek thru wandering monsters back to the city.

I once started in a supers campaign where the session started at the "scene of the criris" and (as it was explained to me) "that roleplaying part of *sitting in your secret ID at work and how fast do you get here when the alarm* we skip that now to save time" and that is not so much different from older days when "session starts at dungeon door" was not all that rare a bird. i did not stay with that particular supers campaign after the one session as it wasn't what i was after, but they had a blast and it lasted quite a while if i recall.

mechanically speaking...

lance
pro - 1d12 damage + reach
con - two handed unless nounted, disadvantage within 5' (tyhe most common melee range)

greataxe
pro 1d12 damage
con - heavy and two handed.

scratching my head to see how those are particularly any sort of majorly screwed between each other balance-wise.

Quick scan of mounted combat - dont see any special "add to lance" rules.

So, those two do not seem to me to be tragically imbalanced with each other. Do not see why a halfling wouldn't have access to a lance that can be used.

So maybe there is a problem with some class features causing whatever imbalance is believed to exist or a feat causing the imbalance but thats a horse of another color.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=63478
 

smbakeresq

Explorer

IMG_0170.JPG
 



5ekyu

Hero

i get you have some sort of dog in the lances halflings fight... thats awesome - go for it...

i dont.

The weapons seem relatively balanced to me in "design" as the slight edge from reach and "if mounted one hand" vs heavy and two handed are going to be really out-impacted by the constant 5' range disadvantage in the vast majority of combats we see.

if you beef is with the dual wielder feat fix it in your games or avoid games where RAW is fixed and that feat allowed and horses in dungeons is normal.

Games are not white room excel sheets so getting down in the weeds with those rarely accomplishes much more than a quickie diversion while a hurricane creeps slowly forward towards one's house.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
The rules in the PHB do not allow for unilateral altering, though. They explicitly say otherwise. Here is a quote from the customization section, "If you can’t find a feature that matches your desired background, work with your DM to create one." That means that if you want to do something other than what is spelled out in the PHB as an acceptable alteration, you need DM approval.

I would expand on what [MENTION=6747114]DMDave[/MENTION]1 said above. The passage you quoted refers specifically to working with the DM to create a new mechanical benefit for a custom background. It does not in any way state that you need the DM's permission to alter class fluff to, for example, have a Barbarian PC who aspires for their tribe to join civilization rather than viewing civilization as a form of weakness.

Having the rest of your tribe agree with you that civilization is a good thing would require DM buy-in by default, since the other tribe members are NPCs, but a PC's personal opinion of civilization is normally entirely up to the player. If a specific opinion of civilization would somehow create problems for a specific game, the DM can totally ask the player to change it, but, absent such a request, the player is doing nothing wrong by unilaterally determining their character's opinions.
 

Remove ads

Top