D&D 5E yes, this again: Fighters need more non-combat options

[Maxperson]

Saelorn "takes offense" at being accused of metagaming, yet he thinks it's fine to continually accuse others of "not roleplaying"?

Hmmm....

And metagaming. I didn't point out his metagaming until he accused me of it first.

 

[Hussar]

I think one area that's ripe for a fighter is tool use (and yes I know everyone can gain tool usage, but the incentive for the Fighter to gain them so they have more to do when out of combat is higher than for other classes). It's something which can be learned in downtime, and which has potentially much wider application than I suspect a lot of games use/exploit to their most advantage. Xanathar's Guide went a long way to helping out with this.

For example at level 3 a Battle Master gets "Student of War", where you gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice. I picked Carpentry Tools, and this is on my Character Sheet with all my other abilities:

Carpentry: Enables a character to construct wooden structures; house, a shack, a wooden cabinet, or similar items. Components. saw, hammer, nails, hatchet, square, ruler, adze, plane, chisel. Xanathar's Pg 78
History. Aids you in identifying the use and the origin of wooden buildings and other large wooden objects.
Investigation. Additional insight when inspecting areas within wooden structures, because you know tricks of construction that can conceal areas from discovery.
Perception. You can spot irregularities in wooden walls or floors, making it easier to find trap doors and secret passages.
Stealth. You can quickly assess the weak spots in a wooden floor, making it easier to avoid the places that creek and groan when they’re stepped on.
Fortify. With 1 minute of work and raw materials, you can make a door or window harder to force open. Increase the DC needed to open it by 5.
Temporary Shelter. As part of a long rest, you can construct a lean-to or a similar shelter to keep your group dry and in the shade for the duration of the rest. Because it was fashioned quickly from whatever wood was available, the shelter collapses 1d3 days after being assembled.
And then the list of four DCs listed in Xanathar's.

What this means is I now essentially have proficiency in History, Investigation, and Stealth when those checks are made concerning certain activities over or with wooden structures, objects, floors, walls, etc.. And I can help block a door during short and long rests, and help out with shelters. All good stuff for out of combat activities.

Y'know that's a good idea. Tool use isn't a bad idea at all. IIRC, you can become proficient in tools through down time training, no? Like you can learn languages right? Or am I misremembering things? Well, in any case, why not allow fighters to train in tools the way you can learn languages - 10 work weeks (?) of down time to learn a new tool? IDHMBIFOM, so, I can't remember the actual times. But, that's not a bad way to go. Totally up to the player whether or not he or she wants to do it.

 

[Mistwell]

Y'know that's a good idea. Tool use isn't a bad idea at all. IIRC, you can become proficient in tools through down time training, no? Like you can learn languages right? Or am I misremembering things?

You remember correctly. "Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the character’s Intelligence modifier (an Intelligence penalty doesn’t increase the time needed). Training costs 25 gp per workweek."

 

[TheSword]

It is easier than ever for Fighters to branch out into other areas of interest because of Bounded Accuracy, the proficiency system, Feats and ASI.

It is trivially easy for a fighter to take the persuasion skill, a base Cha 12 and a charisma ASI to both charismatic and skilled and be the face of the party.

It’s easy to put some points into wisdom, take medicine and healers kit proficiency and be a battlefield healer.

The discussion on tools above shows how practical game benefits can come from thinking outside the box and common sense interpretations of the base rules. All xanathars guide did was show us what any DM or player could have come up with using the existing rule set and proficiency system.

Regarding Saelorn’s comment that natural talent trumps skill every time. I have to disagree. Natural talent when refined and developed is better than training alone but there are lots of situations when natural instinct and flair are trumped by training or experience... driving, art, musical instruments, cooking, medicine, negotiation, jurisprudence, construction and I’m sure many more. Of course the ideal is to have both.

 

[Eubani]

It is easier than ever for Fighters to branch out into other areas of interest because of Bounded Accuracy, the proficiency system, Feats and ASI.

Guess which class can also do this......all of them.

 

[TheSword]

Guess which class can also do this......all of them.

Not as well as the fighter, because of the extra feat/ASI, and the fact that it isn’t a MAD class, only really needs Str or Dex and Con.

 

[ad_hoc]

It’s easy to put some points into wisdom, take medicine and healers kit proficiency and be a battlefield healer.

This is adjacent to the thread, but Medicine is not used here. The point of a Healer's Kit is to remove the need for a Medicine check.

Medicine is a completely useless skill which should not be in the game.

 

[GlassJaw]

Not as well as the fighter, because of the extra feat/ASI, and the fact that it isn’t a MAD class, only really needs Str or Dex and Con.

As has been discussed in this thread, the fighter doesn't get an extra feat until level 6. Up to that point, most of the other classes have class abilities that help them in the social and exploration pillars of the game.

It also feels like a tax on the fighter that they need to spend their first bonus feat on something so they have something they con contribute outside of combat. Pretty much every class already is doing that from levels 1-5.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TheSword]

As has been discussed in this thread, the fighter doesn't get an extra feat until level 6. Up to that point, most of the other classes have class abilities that help them in the social and exploration pillars of the game.

It also feels like a tax on the fighter that they need to spend their first bonus feat on something so they have something they con contribute outside of combat. Pretty much every class already is doing that from levels 1-5.

The feats aren’t a tax because they are extra ability to what other classes receive. The fighter can choose to specialise in combat or can branch out into other areas beyond combat. What is being missed is that the fighter can afford to branch out with its feats, skills, and ability scores and yet still be great in combat because of extra attacks, action surge and the fighter archetype abilities. Other classes can’t do that. I’m not saying that fighters are the best at doing this, there are also ways more powerful classes but they can do it respectably.

I always like an example. I created a Sun Elf Fighter who acted as a Witcher style character. Survival, Arcana, Athletics, Perception, and proficiency with alchemy and herbalism tools gave them plenty to do outside combat from level 1 while still being great in combat. At no point did I feel sidelined or disenfranchised. This would have been almost impossible to create as satisfactorily under earlier editions using just the base fighter.

On a side issue most games are played at levels 4-12 where ASI’s are very much available and useful. Levels 1-3 tend to pass very quickly and most games peter out past level 10.