[New DM Question] What about Simultaneous Movement?

[Yunru]

At my table I give anything that moves an initiative, and allow initiative delaying (where you can move your initiative to after someone further in the track).
What this means is that if a creature wants to move with something else, they can delay their initiative to after that thing. That way they only move once the item has moved in play, and move along side it narratively.

 

[Travis Henry]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Charlaquin and DM Dave1 affirmed the original problem. From everyone's posts, I see at least four solutions:

1) Tweaking the fiction/narrative to match the RAW. ("You had to hesitate a bit to get Ready to move together, so only Move, not Dash.) This is the most straightforward solution, yet probably least satisfactory given the karma of my group.

2) Resolving calls for simultaneous movement as a narrated non-combat ability check (outside of Initiative) or a chase scene. This sounds like it might be the most creative and acceptable.

3) As DM, keeping the PCs' "declared simultaneity" in mind throughout the round, even though it isn't apparent as the PC figures are sequentially moved on the grid. In other words, the PC who is "running behind the ox cart" does keep Cover throughout his turn, even though it appears the cart has moved way ahead of him. And the group of PCs madly Dashing "together" past the Goblin archer are randomly targeted by the DM, instead of the Goblin automatically targeting the PC who seems to be sequentially stick out first (or last).

4) Houseruling a campaign-specific Dash Together special action (which can only be triggered by a slower ally's pre-signaled Dash, and which uses up the faster character's Action, Move, and Reaction), and possibly also a Move Together special action (which can only be used when triggered by a slower ally's pre-signaled Move, and which, unlike a usual "Ready", allows the faster character to take their Action on their turn instead of blowing it on a "Ready." The faster character only loses their Reaction). This would only be about "readying" simultaneous allied movement, not about allowing Ready to be used for just any "Move + Action" (that would be opening a can of worms).

These guys just love running together - it's becoming a signature move of this party.

Thanks everybody! This a great and helpful community.

 

[iserith]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. Charlaquin and DM Dave1 affirmed the original problem. From everyone's posts, I see at least four solutions:

1) Tweaking the fiction/narrative to match the RAW. ("You had to hesitate a bit to get Ready to move together, so only Move, not Dash.) This is the most straightforward solution, yet probably least satisfactory given the karma of my group.

A small suggestion on this solution: If you go with what is essentially mechanics first and frame the fiction around that as truth, then I encourage you to enlist the help of your players to think about how that looks in the fiction for their own characters. "You had to hesitate a bit..." can be seen as the DM playing the character. But if you let them offer that up themselves, it comes with their immediate buy-in on both the mechanical resolution and the way it plays out in the emerging story. Player buy-in is great for maintaining satisfaction with the play experience.

 

[Ganders]

Other systems do initiative a bit different, partly to deal with this. Hackmaster, for instance, is mostly a D&D clone. But it allows for some actions to take longer, and incrimental movement throughout a round. Everything takes a certain amount of time, from attacks to movement to skills and even conversation. For instance, at a normal walk you would move five feet every 2 points of initiative. At a jog, 5 feet every point of initiative, and at a run you could move 10 feet every point of initiative. That also lets you figure out how far the wagon has progressed (with a PC beside it) at the time the goblin shoots its arrow. It doesn't bog down as much as you would think, because the DM isn't required to do all the initiative work -- each player keeps track of their own initiative roll and how long their attacks take.

The basic version of the Hackmaster rules is a free PDF, if you want more detail.

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

A lot of people are overthinking this. PC on cart has to ready his action to wait for PC wanting to use cart as cover. If the cover using guy wants/needs to dash, he can move UP TO 60 ft (or whatever their dash speed is). They don’t need to move the entirety of their dash speed. If I have a movement speed of 30 ft, I’m more than welcome to use only 5ft of it. The same goes for dash.

Narratively, the cover using dude is a little delayed in reacting to the unfolding events (low initiative score), and his buddy has to wait for him to use the tactic effectively. The player who rolled low initiative needs to accept the fact that they rolled crummy, which makes them a little delayed in their response to the fight.

 

[pukunui]

I have to say, none of my players have ever tried to coordinate their movement during normal combats, so this issue hasn't ever come up for me in this context.

However, where it has reared its ugly head in my games is every single time I've ever tried to do a chase scene. The stop-start nature of turn-based gaming just doesn't work for chases, and I've yet to find a set of rules for running chases that does a good job modeling simultaneous movement.

The chase rules in the 5e DMG suck. The only nod towards simultaneous movement that they include is banning opportunity attacks. This does nothing to stop the bungie effect of quarry moving away, pursuer catching up, quarry moving away, pursuer catching up, and so on.

The one set of chase rules that I have actually enjoyed using are the alternate 5e chase rules in the DDEX season 2 adventure, Cloaks and Shadows. Those rules use a more abstract movement method involving zones. The quarry essentially stays in one place, as it were, while the pursuers move forward or backward through various zones (adjacent, near, far, etc).

Although they aren't perfect either, they are far better than what's in the DMG. I wish they'd get more recognition.


EDIT: I agree that the "side initiative" variant could go a long way towards addressing the OP's problem in normal combat rounds.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Readying a Dash is a waste. But you can Ready movement. So at least there's that.

Not necessarily. I could use a move to move towards a target to goad them towards you, use a bonus attack (maybe a quickened spell) then ready a dash action with the trigger ‘when they are 10 feet away’. Then move back 30 feet out of the opponent’s melee range and back behind cover.

It’s kind of situational. Maybe someone is behind cover and you are trying to draw them out or something.

To the OP. If they are out of combat and planning to go together, like your second example, I let them go at the same time at the slowest initiative.

For the Mexican stand off, I allow an insight and anyone who fails misses their turn, like an ambush situation. Still possible for everyone to go before the person imitating combat, but less likely.

 

[iserith]

Not necessarily. I could use a move to move towards a target to goad them towards you, use a bonus attack (maybe a quickened spell) then ready a dash action with the trigger ‘when they are 10 feet away’. Then move back 30 feet out of the opponent’s melee range and back behind cover.

It’s kind of situational. Maybe someone is behind cover and you are trying to draw them out or something.

To the OP. If they are out of combat and planning to go together, like your second example, I let them go at the same time at the slowest initiative.

For the Mexican stand off, I allow an insight and anyone who fails misses their turn, like an ambush situation. Still possible for everyone to go before the person imitating combat, but less likely.

Dash only increases your speed. It does not allow you to move.

 

[iserith]

I have to say, none of my players have ever tried to coordinate their movement during normal combats, so this issue hasn't ever come up for me in this context.

However, where it has reared its ugly head in my games is every single time I've ever tried to do a chase scene. The stop-start nature of turn-based gaming just doesn't work for chases, and I've yet to find a set of rules for running chases that does a good job modeling simultaneous movement.

The chase rules in the 5e DMG suck. The only nod towards simultaneous movement that they include is banning opportunity attacks. This does nothing to stop the bungie effect of quarry moving away, pursuer catching up, quarry moving away, pursuer catching up, and so on.

The one set of chase rules that I have actually enjoyed using are the alternate 5e chase rules in the DDEX season 2 adventure, Cloaks and Shadows. Those rules use a more abstract movement method involving zones. The quarry essentially stays in one place, as it were, while the pursuers move forward or backward through various zones (adjacent, near, far, etc).

Although they aren't perfect either, they are far better than what's in the DMG. I wish they'd get more recognition.


EDIT: I agree that the "side initiative" variant could go a long way towards addressing the OP's problem in normal combat rounds.

I am in no way defending the sub-par chase rules in D&D 5e, but the key thing in that system is not the movement but the hiding at the end of the round. The quarry getting away due to outrunning pursuers is far less common than hiding. The "bungie effect" you mention should only be happening if the quarry is constantly failing Dexterity (Stealth) checks - and if you're a PC, this is when you spend your Inspiration, rather than using them to pay off complications.

 

[Prakriti]

Try the Side Initiative variant in the DMG. It allows for more cooperation between players, and it's pretty cool. I use a variant, though:

Players roll initiative as normal, Monsters roll initiative ONCE for their side (use the highest initiative modifier). You end up with something like this:

Player A: 20
Player B: 17
Monsters: 15
Player C: 12
Player D: 8

The first round of combat is just Players A & B, since they beat the monsters. After that, the rounds alternate between players and monsters:

Round 1: Players (A & B only)
Round 2: Monsters
Round 3: Players (all)
Round 4: Monsters
Round 5: Players
etc.

This mitigates the effect of "winning initiative," which can be a sizable benefit with the default Side Initiative rules.