Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Aldarc]

I think this frames it unfairly. You can worry about both.

Just because you can worry about both does not mean that you should. They do not hold equal moral weight. I'm sorry but even if something leads to "duller" art but the alternative is harmful to actual people, then I will take the "duller" art every time. Because one is a moral position concerned with respecting the integrity of the human person and the other is not. If I am cooking a big dish for a group then I have to be mindful of their allergies and diets even if that leads to "duller-tasting food." Why? Because that is the bare minimum of decency for even a quarter-decent human being.

I don’t think it is immediately obvious though either.

For YOU. Though why you still hold to this position after being "educated" about it is beyond me.

And I still think there is room for disagreement over whether the tropes are racist, or colonialist propaganda, whether it is a problem, and if it is a problem, what the best approach forward is.

There may be room for disagreement, but I don't think that you are operating in that space.

I think it is the kind of analysis you have to be educated into.

Nah, I think that this is the kind of answer that attempts to stifle analysis and discussion.

I don’t think orcs are a particularly colonialist trope. I think you have to squint to see it.

Coded-Language: "If I have to squint to see the letters on the ophthalmologist's Snellen chart that everyone else sees, then the problem is not with my eyesight but with the chart."

And I think criticisms on colonialist grounds require such in depth knowledge of the history that isn’t something most people would see unless they are trained to see it.

Coded-Language: "Scheiße. How are the untrained 'common folk' actually now seeing this as an issue when they should be ignorant and quiet about it like they were before?"

It seems like an elitist concern to me.

Coded-Language: "It is a non-issue and you should ignore the 'academics' and 'elites' who are making something out of nothing."

So I think it is an odd thing to fixate on as a problem.

Coded-Language: "Don't think on the issue because I also don't want to be forced into a position where I have 'to think' about the issue."

It is based on my experience playing games with orcs in them, my experience talking to other gamers about this issue, and my assessment of the arguments people have made on this topic in the last several years.

Coded-Language: "If my bubble of contacts is fine with it then there is no problem."

 

[S'mon]

Coded-Language...Coded-Language...Coded-Language...Coded-Language...Coded-Language...

I think you are being unfair to Brendan and putting words in his mouth.
I confess to a certain sense of Schadenfreude, since I feel (subjective experience!) that he has done the same to me many times over the years, elsewhere on the Internet.
Still, having been on the other side of this, I would advocate erring towards taking the most charitable, rather than least charitable, reading of someone's position.

 

[Aldarc]

I think you are being unfair to Brendan and putting words in his mouth.

Still, having been on the other side of this, I would advocate erring towards taking the most charitable, rather than least charitable, reading of someone's position.

I am affording him as much fairness and charity as he has afforded this topic. However, this sort of coded double-speak when it comes to discussing these sort of issues is far too common to ignore. If he does not mean these things, then he has the good charity to clarify himself. But these are certainly not his first words on the topic, but a summation of his opinions regarding the topic following 25+ pages of discussion, and given that others also took issue with that post, then I am not alone in my criticisms of that summation.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Dude, if someone is honestly telling you that something is a problem, it’s at least a problem for them- like I said, it’s just a problem of degree. (Again, in the quoted section.)

But it doesn't mean they are right that it is a problem for the broader culture. I could be really bothered by something, but my reaction might be a very unreasonable one. I am not saying we should ignore peoples' concerns, dismiss them, or lack empathy. I am saying we should not give up our responsibility to think for ourselves.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Coded-Language: "Scheiße. How are the untrained 'common folk' actually now seeing this as an issue when they should be ignorant and quiet about it like they were before?"

You are completely putting words my mouth now

 

[Bedrockgames]

I am affording him as much fairness and charity as he has afforded this topic. However, this sort of coded double-speak when it comes to discussing these sort of issues is far too common to ignore. If he does not mean these things, then he has the good charity to clarify himself. But these are certainly not his first words on the topic, but a summation of his opinions regarding the topic following 25+ pages of discussion, and given that others also took issue with that post, then I am not alone in my criticisms of that summation.

I have stated the same basic opinion over the course fo the thread and it keeps getting reframed or recharacterized. I have no problem being pinned to actual positions that I express (though obviously an opinion could be expressed inelegantly and require clarification). But I keep getting responses like "so why don't you care about group X, or why do you think your X is more important than the dying babies". These responses feel like they are twisting my words. Now you are literally looking for coded language (coded language I know for a fact I am not using). I'd also point out many of the posters tearing apart my position (including yourself) are a group of posters I have longstanding disagreements with over other topics (sometimes very intense disagreements about playstyle). I would ask them how objective they really think they are being in evaluating my position.

 

[Bedrockgames]

How do you define “struggling” and “elitist”? These images and words affect everyday people every day.

Leaving behind my own personal experiences in the US school system, I know my cousin came home from school (in MA) one day asking her Mom “When do I get to be white?” She wasn’t into double-digits yet, and had already noticed differential treatment of PoC in school, art, and media. It was eroding her self esteem.

I grew up most of my life in Boston, and spent five years in a pretty racist small town out west for part of it, I don't disagree with there being major racial issues in Massachusetts. And I can totally see how this would happen because I remember how kids in the METCO Program often got treated by the white students or teachers (I am forty two though so this was the 80s and 90s---I can't speak as much to the present day situation). I also live in Lynn, which is pretty racially diverse, and since the election I've seen a lot of troubling things happen here toward immigrant groups. I am not unconcerned about these issues. A lot of the issues being raised have personal impact for me. I am just saying, I don't think evil orcs are a particularly problematic trope, and I think we are putting undo emphasis on media content you really have to dig deeply into to find to be a problem (or media that is debatable as a problem). At the same time, I think we have to be careful about always assuming racism is the cause of something, and training people to see racism in everything. Racism is a problem. There is often an issue with racism in media. But some of the complaints about things like orcs, or complaints that D&D is colonialist in a variety of ways, seem really more of a stretch to me. And as much as I feel for a child in the situation you just described, I can't be dishonest in giving you my opinion that something is or is not a problem. I have to give my real opinion. And I think a lot of people are not doing that in these conversation because, as we can see, there is a big cost for even stepping a little bit outside the box.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I agree, many traps are laid for the ordinary folks, but unlike you, most people who don't feel up to navigating these mine-laden waters avoid engaging with discussions like this one (especially the last 19 pages or so).

I don't particularly feel up to it either. I don't enjoy online debates any more like I used to. I find them exhausting and have other things I'd rather discuss. I just think it is important to weigh in because I didn't realize how much the conversation had shifted and I think it is being shifted in a misguided (but well intentioned) direction.

 

[Bedrockgames]

How do you define “struggling” and “elitist”? These images and words affect everyday people every day.
.

I was responding to Pemerton, and assumed he was talking about people living in oppressive circumstances or at the bottom of society. By elitist I basically mean people who have good jobs and/or have master degrees or doctorates (or the equivalent elsewhere). Full disclosure, I have a BA degree, but it took me many years to obtain. One thing I've noticed is how out of your depth one can feel n these conversations when you don't have the more advanced degrees other posters have. Not because you feel like you are wrong and trying to BS, but in situations where you really feel like you are in the right, but you just are not steeped in the discourse or rhetoric enough to know where the landmines are. I have also just noticed gaming culture in general seems very split between those with masters degrees and those without. I think you are even beginning to see it at the designer level, where more and more game designers do seem to have masters degrees (I could be wrong, it is based on subjective impression). So it just feels to me like the hobby is becoming more and more elitist. And some of the really academic critiques being leveled at fantasy gaming seem like an elite concern to me. It isn't stuff I see at the table of regular gaming. It is stuff you have to know about arguments around colonialist tropes to really even see sometimes. I remember when arguments about racist orcs, or about dungeon delving and exploration being tied to colonialism first emerged and how most people seemed to find them kind of silly. But now they are gaining traction because I think a lot of these ideas have filtered down and are being taken up by more regular folk.

Believe me, I don't want to go toe to toe with someone like Pemerton over this stuff. I am not as skilled at debate, nor am I as educated, but I genuinely feel this stuff is misguided, causes more harm than good, and is not beneficial to the quality of artistic expression. And I think we are closing the doors around a lot of interesting things. For instance misogyny was brought up in this thread, and you can see in many peoples responses that just plain sexiness or displays of sexuality are sometimes being treated as terrible through that lens. I think there is room for disagreement over this stuff. But if I don't agree down the line with the program everyone on this thread seems to have signed up for, I am somehow labeled a bad person or my intentions are called into questions (despite a plethora of posters also stating our intentions never matter).

 

[darkbard]

I have to give my real opinion. And I think a lot of people are not doing that in these conversation because, as we can see, there is a big cost for even stepping a little bit outside the box.

I see: you are somehow being compelled to post the truth here. And the rest of us are likewise compelled to participate in this conversation but somehow won't represent how we really feel for fear of some kind of reprisal. Yeah, that must be it.