Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Bedrockgames]

If the person from Newton is Jewish, then "my people are from Krakow" probably involves a story with tragic aspects. I speculate that your friends knew, and trusted, that you'd handle that with compassion and respect.

Where I grew up it was mainly Jewish, Italian and Irish. So it was one of the first things that tended to come up. It was never done disrespectfully, but it wasn't particularly touchy feely either. In Boston people are generally pretty rough with each other, but in a way that is meant to be friendly busting of chops. I think that kind of cultural detail is one that gets lost in these debates (and one I think Dannyalcatraz was pointing to when he mentioned that 'where are you from' is more common where he comes from.

Anyone who actually had ties to the holocaust, that was generally taken pretty seriously (in fact my high school had a lot of courses that we took (or at least segments of courses) on the holocaust. And I even met survivors working at a local Jewish bakery (but one of the first things I was asked by them is if I was Jewish or Italian). Those kinds of meetings were not something taken lightly.

I also believe Hussar about people asking "Where are you from?" and then *insisting* on drilling down to ancestry. The insistence is rude.

Of course it is. My first comment on this topic was to explain why I thought it was particularly insulting for Asian people (because they get asked where they are from when other groups don't). I was just adding a note in there about people asking about ethnic backgrounds in the north east (because my experience out west was people thought more in terms of race there than ethnic groups).

 

[Bedrockgames]

The issue I have with the "fine tooth comb" argument is that, intentionally or not, it's incredibly dismissive. It's essentially saying, "I don't have this issue and people in my circle don't have this issue, therefore, this is only an issue if you go hunting for something to complain about. Otherwise, my circle of people would be aware of this issue and would talk about it."

It's an easy way to dismiss an issue without ever having to actually engage with it.

I mean, as written, no actor of color can EVER play an Elf in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. Not without changing the text. When your world building is such that it precludes entire peoples from playing characters, that's probably a good place to start when making some changes going forward.

Heck, see the viral tweet that's now been proven to be fake that the Amazon version of LotR will include elves played by actors of color to see just how far we REALLY need to go.

Tell me again how the treatment of minorities in LotR isn't a problem today.

For Reference about how the tweet was faked

But I am not being dismissive, and I said in this thread I am fine them casting whoever they want as hobbits (or elves). If they want to cast black actors as elves, I don't see a problem (and you don't have to change the text). At the same time, I don't think it is a crime for a writer to assign some kind of features to fantasy groups. I wouldn't complain if the elves were generally dark skinned, nor would I complain if they were light skinned (especially if lore is being drawn upon). I think that is the sort of thing that is up to the world designer. And I think if we insist one way or another, it removes a lot of possibilities, not because those possibilities are themselves racist, but because there is possibility they could be in some cases. You are not giving people the ability to explore this stuff (for whatever reason) if you establish this long list of guidelines that people are expected to adhere to. I get we don't want Varg Vikerness style settings. But what I am saying is I've read plenty of fantasy stories where clearly groups operate on similar principles to ethnicity in the real world (this group from this area is generally X or Y). But I've also read fantasy stories where that assumption wasn't in play (Ken Liu's Dandelion Dynasty books kind of do this, where a lot of the setting is asian inspired but physical features of characters are all over the map (and I am pretty sure he stated he did that to move away from focusing on ethnicity). I like that both of these possibilities exist because fantasy worlds are thought experiments. And if always assume bad faith when people experiment with this stuff, I think we can miss out on some amazing settings, books, etc. This is why I say I get you are coming from a very well intentioned place. I just don't think it leads us to a better place in the long run.

 

[Hussar]

Heck, I've been an expat most of my adult life. "Where are you from" is about as common between my peers as shaking hands. It's because we know (or at least have a darn good idea) that we're all not from here.

Context does matter of course.

 

[Bedrockgames]

True. Also Italians, as you're well aware. Some Jewish people are white, some are not; the Neo-Nazis target both Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

My grandfather was a boxer in the 30s and 40s, and Italian. On his boxing license there is an entry for "Complexion", and it is listed as "Medium". I never was able to confirm why that was there, but I assumed it had something to do with fighting in Jim Crow areas of the country. Because there isn't really much of a reason to mark down a boxer's complexion that I can think of.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

(and you don't have to change the text). /snip.

But, you do. These characters are described as white. There's no question about them being white. The non-white characters are evil. Some of the white characters are evil, but, all of the non-white characters are evil.

So, yes, you have to change the text.

 

[Hussar]

But Hussar, this is a fictional universe with their own customs of what is good, and yes some rooted in the ideas and thought of that time by the author. But if you really want to stretch it, in RL people are not born with elven ears. None of us, whatever hair colour, make good elves, Tolkien or otherwise. There is a point where this reassessing goes too far and I think we might be there. Don't you?

I posted, quite a few pages back, an excellent essay about world building. What we choose to include and exclude matter. When ALL your non-white characters are evil, and only white characters can be good or evil, that matters.

Again, the fact that you see Twitter exploding at the mere suggestion that they might cast elves using actors of color shows pretty darn clearly that this isn't just a "fine tooth comb" issue that no one cares about.

 

[Sadras]

I mean, as written, no actor of color can EVER play an Elf in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. Not without changing the text. When your world building is such that it precludes entire peoples from playing characters, that's probably a good place to start when making some changes going forward.

I'm pretty sure BBC/Netflix did not change any text in the Iliad or Odyssey when they cast two PoC as Zeus and Achilles.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So, yes, you have to change the text.

I would just reiterate what Sadras said. This isn't changing the text. This is making an casting choice that either disregards what the text says or reinterprets it (I am not able to remember how all the other races are described in Lord of the Rings, so don't know which category such a casting choice would fall into). But either way, I really don't care who they cast. I think the best thing is for the director to be able to realize a creative visions and for people to not always assume they are either trying to ruin their childhood or be mean to the world. I could totally see value in going against expectations here. I could also see value in shifting location like they've done with Shakespeare in a lot of cases (the first performance I ever saw of Shakespeare was Hamlet with all black actors and it was, I believe, set in modern day Africa----I was young so I don't remember all the details----this had to be the very late 70s or very early 80s). Also, sometimes you just want the right actor for the role regardless of the skin color of the character. It is acting. People should be able to act in roles that are outside their own identity.

 

[Sadras]

I posted, quite a few pages back, an excellent essay about world building. What we choose to include and exclude matter. When ALL your non-white characters are evil, and only white characters can be good or evil, that matters.

Again, the fact that you see Twitter exploding at the mere suggestion that they might cast elves using actors of color shows pretty darn clearly that this isn't just a "fine tooth comb" issue that no one cares about.

Okay I will admit I'm a bit of traditionalist, so I also would not want to see blonde Vulcans.

I believe the answer to your post is, for the WotC/community to create more awesome dudes like Duke Ulder Ravenguard, Marshall of the Flaming Fist in our D&D mythos. Why complain and attempt to rewrite (correct) the past when you control the present and future? And why are we obsessing with Tolkien, black hair and darker skinned elves are allowed in FR and many other settings.

Do we really need PoC to play every role possible? Vikings? Kerrigan? Mario Brothers? Can fiction just not be?

 

[sd_jasper]

Here's a significant difference, in the course of that comparison:
<snip>
I could not play an elf whom Morgoth corrupts into an orc, because no Elf ever has my hair color. I could only play the output side of that process. Apparently the process which turns a good person into a bad person, also makes a fair-haired person look... more like me? Well, that explains a lot, doesn't it?

Whedon took a trope which was common in Westerns, and *made it not about race*. IMO that's a good change.

Thank you, you make good points. And I apologize if this was stated earlier and I missed it, I jumped into this conversation a bit late. I'm not sure I agree that you "could not play" a character that differs in appearance than you, but your point still stands.

I guess where I differ is that I haven't played games that are directly based on LotR. Orcs in my games have had pig-like faces, or more recently appear like the typical "war-craft" orc. They have had skin colors of various shades of green, blue, and red. To me they don't resemble any human race to exist. Maybe a bit Neanderthal, but even that is a stretch. (And I usually give them "cockney" accents, fwiw).

Now, I get that these "modern" orcs are still based on JRRT orcs... but through the years they have evolved into something new, in the same way that "reavers" evolved from the "Indians" of Old West fiction.