Do orcs in gaming display parallels to colonialist propaganda?

[Bedrockgames]

Further advice: don’t drink rubbing alcohol as a beverage. You already weren’t gonna do that, right? But there’s a warning labels on bottles of rubbing alcohol which says “Not for internal use”. Because SOME people do that, and it’s a problem. Also: there ARE gamers who WOULD encourage Danny to play up the savage, physical aspects of his half-orc characters, without considering how that might land on a sore spot. I’ve met those gamers at conventions. You’re not one of them. They still exist.
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My issue with this is you stated it as a request to me. It just made it sound like you thought I was at risk of doing that sort of thing. That is like me asking you to please not murder any children. Can you see how I would feel the need to weigh in defensively? I would never treat a player that way at my table.

 

[Riley37]

Caveat: in the USA, even certain Caucasian Europeans have faced their own versions of bigotry. “Irish Need Not Apply” signs were popular, once upon a time. And Eastern Europeans were not so well received when they first started coming to these shores in big numbers.

True. Also Italians, as you're well aware. Some Jewish people are white, some are not; the Neo-Nazis target both Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

Not to mention Charles Trevelyan. I'll just stop right there.

 

[Bedrockgames]

People whose ancestry and features have never put them on the short end of a power dynamic, are comfortable exploring the minor variations within their genetic common ground... and that's different from the comfort level of those whose ancestors would have (in the USA) been on the short end of the Internment of 1941, or the Naturalization Act of 1790 (which restricted citizenship to "any alien, being a free white person"). Rather predictable, actually. Meanwhile, anyone among the bosses who was less white, would get a reminder of their outlier status. "We're all Aryan here, but who's Nordic and who's Persian? Oh, all of us excepting you, Carlos, no offense meant."

I think this is an oversimplification. Like I mentioned in the north east asking about ethnic heritage is pretty common. Most of my friends growing up were Jewish and they would ask that question as much as anyone (and obviously Jewish people were subject to exactly the sort of thing you invoke). This is just something that crops up I think when you have a lot of immigrant groups living in close proximity and parts of the cultures still remain even after 2-3 generations.

 

[ccs]

Here's a significant difference, in the course of that comparison:

In JRRT's setting, when Morgoth tortures and corrupts elves, their physical appearance changes.

On the input side: elves are "the fairest creatures in Arda". The Quenya word "Vanyar", translated as "fair", refers to their light-coloured hair. When their eye color is mentioned, it's gray. Some Elves have brown hair, but JRRT wrote, in these words, "no Elf had absolute black hair".

On the output side: we've already quoted physical descriptions and established which human populations match those descriptions.

Meanwhile, in the 'Verse, the process which tortures and corrupts ordinary humans into Reavers changes their minds, and NOT their physical appearance. In the episode "Bushwacked", we see a person on both ends of the process. I could have played that character, because in the 'Verse, an ordinary humans can have black hair, and as a Reaver will still have black hair.

I could not play an elf whom Morgoth corrupts into an orc, because no Elf ever has my hair color. I could only play the output side of that process. Apparently the process which turns a good person into a bad person, also makes a fair-haired person look... more like me? Well, that explains a lot, doesn't it?

Sorry, I think I've missed something. Why would you having black hair IRL prevent you from playing a Tolkien elf?
If it's in a game? Well, I doubt many of us have ever matched most of our characters descriptions....
If you're talking about as an actor? Dude, we have hair dye, wigs, & CGI for that.

 

[Sadras]

Sorry, I think I've missed something. Why would you having black hair IRL prevent you from playing a Tolkien elf?
If it's in a game? Well, I doubt many of us have ever matched most of our characters descriptions....
If you're talking about as an actor? Dude, we have hair dye, wigs, & CGI for that.

I believe this is an example of the fine tooth comb Bedrockgames has been referring to.

 

[Hussar]

Sorry, I think I've missed something. Why would you having black hair IRL prevent you from playing a Tolkien elf?
If it's in a game? Well, I doubt many of us have ever matched most of our characters descriptions....
If you're talking about as an actor? Dude, we have hair dye, wigs, & CGI for that.

So, you see absolutely no issue with the fact that I'd have to dye my hair to be considered "good" in a Tolkien universe? That without changing my appearance, there is no way I could be considered part of the best "good" race?

Really, you think that's not an issue?

Heh, I remember when that awful D&D movie came out and the elf was black and this was actually an issue. So, it's not like this is ancient history.

 

[Riley37]

I think this is an oversimplification.

I was responding to one person's description of one event, and inferring dynamics from context.

In general, yes, there are many situations in which people ask each other about ancestry and heritage, routinely, with goodwill. Such as the friends you mention. There's a way of asking "Where are you from?" which gets the answer "I'm from Newton" and another way which gets the answer "My people are from Krakow".

If the person from Newton is Jewish, then "my people are from Krakow" probably involves a story with tragic aspects. I speculate that your friends knew, and trusted, that you'd handle that with compassion and respect.

I also believe Hussar about people asking "Where are you from?" and then *insisting* on drilling down to ancestry. The insistence is rude.

 

[Riley37]

Sorry, I think I've missed something.

Yes. Yes, you have.

 

[Sadras]

So, you see absolutely no issue with the fact that I'd have to dye my hair to be considered "good" in a Tolkien universe? That without changing my appearance, there is no way I could be considered part of the best "good" race?

Really, you think that's not an issue?

But Hussar, this is a fictional universe with their own customs of what is good, and yes some rooted in the ideas and thought of that time by the author. But if you really want to stretch it, in RL people are not born with elven ears. None of us, whatever hair colour, make good elves, Tolkien or otherwise. There is a point where this reassessing goes too far and I think we might be there. Don't you?

 

[Hussar]

The issue I have with the "fine tooth comb" argument is that, intentionally or not, it's incredibly dismissive. It's essentially saying, "I don't have this issue and people in my circle don't have this issue, therefore, this is only an issue if you go hunting for something to complain about. Otherwise, my circle of people would be aware of this issue and would talk about it."

It's an easy way to dismiss an issue without ever having to actually engage with it.

I mean, as written, no actor of color can EVER play an Elf in Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. Not without changing the text. When your world building is such that it precludes entire peoples from playing characters, that's probably a good place to start when making some changes going forward.

Heck, see the viral tweet that's now been proven to be fake that the Amazon version of LotR will include elves played by actors of color to see just how far we REALLY need to go.

Tell me again how the treatment of minorities in LotR isn't a problem today.

For Reference about how the tweet was faked