If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?

[Oofta]

“I check for traps,” your goal is to discern whether or not trap are present. It is not so easy or uncontroversial to infer what you are doing to make that determination. Are you just looking with your eyes? Are you touching anything? Are you using your hands or a tool? I don’t need specific details, but I do need to know generally where you are searching and how you are searching it, just like I don’t need to know specific details of your attack, but I do need to know generally what you are attacking and with what weapon or spell.

This is just a minor pet peeve of mine and I may be the only one who has this problem, but I personally am not trained in removing traps. My PC is. Why should I go into details of how I'm disarming the trap any more than I would describe the methods I'm using to calm a horse with animal handling? I don't deal with horses on a regular basis. Ask me how to approach a skittish cat and I might have some possibilities, but a horse? Not so sure.

So when it comes to traps, how the **** would I know the best approach? As a DM, I may say something like "in order to disable the trap it looks like you need to insert your hand into this hole, do you do it?" As a DM, I try to avoid "gotchas" so I start with the assumption they're just looking and build a scene with the character if it's not clear. That doesn't change whether they're investigating a trap or looking at an old book.

Anyway, it's just a pet peeve and one I've had since my AD&D days. Carry on.

 

[Sadras]

Ask me how to approach a skittish cat and I might have some possibilities.../snip

My wife and I recently adopted such cat. It skittishness I suspect is partly a result of having bounced around to no less than 5 homes in her 2 years of life. After having her 5 months, I can attest the DC decreases but the skittishness remains.

 

[Hriston]

I've been setting it as their 'Passive Deception' DC. What do you do?

I wouldn’t be inclined to ask for an ability check in this situation. Assuming the NPC isn’t trying to hide its true intentions from the PCs, and the player makes an action-declaration along the lines of trying to discern those intentions by observing its body language, speech patterns, manerisms, etc., I’d tell the player s/he doesn’t notice anything that would indicate the NPC is lying. To me , this is analogous to a PC trying to notice a creature that isn't trying to hide. Of course, I'm not going to ask for an ability check to notice a creature that's standing out in the open. It's the same for an NPC that isn't trying to hide its intentions.

I think the description of the Insight skill supports this interpretation with the two examples it gives of its use, i.e. "searching out a lie" and "predicting someone’s next move". Both of those examples involve discovering hidden intentions rather than those that are willingly divulged.

 

[Caliburn101]

This is a fun one...

… just think about it...

… have the player roll, and no matter what they roll, say "They appear to be telling the truth."

No DC needed!

 

[DEFCON 1]

The number is 6.75.

 

[Hussar]

Something that occurs to me that maybe is shaping my POV, is that I play online. And have done so for a long time. Which means that players can roll dice to me (the DM) without knowing the results of the roll. Fantasy Grounds, for example, has the Dice Tower, which means that anything rolled in the tower is only visible to the DM.

So, yeah, of course my players are going to drop dice without me asking. They don't know the results anyway, so, may just as well.

 

[S'mon]

I wouldn’t be inclined to ask for an ability check in this situation. Assuming the NPC isn’t trying to hide its true intentions from the PCs, and the player makes an action-declaration along the lines of trying to discern those intentions by observing its body language, speech patterns, manerisms, etc., I’d tell the player s/he doesn’t notice anything that would indicate the NPC is lying. To me , this is analogous to a PC trying to notice a creature that isn't trying to hide. Of course, I'm not going to ask for an ability check to notice a creature that's standing out in the open. It's the same for an NPC that isn't trying to hide its intentions.

I think the description of the Insight skill supports this interpretation with the two examples it gives of its use, i.e. "searching out a lie" and "predicting someone’s next move". Both of those examples involve discovering hidden intentions rather than those that are willingly divulged.

I don't request an ability check. I'm talking about case where player requests Insight check vs truthful NPC.

If I give a check on request I either say "You don't get a read on them" (Fail) or they notice signs of lying (if lying) or trustworthiness (if truthful).

I don't say "You believe them" if a lying NPC succeeds on a Deception check vs Passive Insight, or "You don't trust them" if PC fails Insight check vs truthful NPC Passive Deception.

 

[billd91]

This is just a minor pet peeve of mine and I may be the only one who has this problem, but I personally am not trained in removing traps. My PC is. Why should I go into details of how I'm disarming the trap any more than I would describe the methods I'm using to calm a horse with animal handling? I don't deal with horses on a regular basis. Ask me how to approach a skittish cat and I might have some possibilities, but a horse? Not so sure.

So when it comes to traps, how the **** would I know the best approach? As a DM, I may say something like "in order to disable the trap it looks like you need to insert your hand into this hole, do you do it?" As a DM, I try to avoid "gotchas" so I start with the assumption they're just looking and build a scene with the character if it's not clear. That doesn't change whether they're investigating a trap or looking at an old book.

Anyway, it's just a pet peeve and one I've had since my AD&D days. Carry on.

I agree with you, generally. I think it's a bit ridiculous for a DM to expect a player to have the expertise their PC has, particularly with respect to something technical like trap finding and disarming. However, I would like players to interact with the room more than, "We search the room for traps." Let me know where you're searching, what order you're searching in, how thoroughly you're digging in - taking your time or being hasty because of the risk of someone else coming in the chamber - that sort of thing.

 

[Oofta]

I wouldn’t be inclined to ask for an ability check in this situation. Assuming the NPC isn’t trying to hide its true intentions from the PCs, and the player makes an action-declaration along the lines of trying to discern those intentions by observing its body language, speech patterns, manerisms, etc., I’d tell the player s/he doesn’t notice anything that would indicate the NPC is lying. To me , this is analogous to a PC trying to notice a creature that isn't trying to hide. Of course, I'm not going to ask for an ability check to notice a creature that's standing out in the open. It's the same for an NPC that isn't trying to hide its intentions.

I think the description of the Insight skill supports this interpretation with the two examples it gives of its use, i.e. "searching out a lie" and "predicting someone’s next move". Both of those examples involve discovering hidden intentions rather than those that are willingly divulged.

But then aren't you broadcasting that the NPC is telling the truth? Because the only other possibility is that they have such a high deception check that you're automatically going to fail which is extremely unlikely.

Which is why I would personally ask for a roll and then respond "they seem to be telling the truth" which is my normal go-to whether or not the NPC is telling the truth. Because the alternative is basically saying "you know they're telling the truth".

EDIT: To put it another way: a PC can always try to do something, even if there is no chance of success. To me the roll of the dice is the game mechanic of the PC attempting something. I don't always do this, sometimes I just say "no you can't lift that rock" but if the outcome is uncertain from the perspective of the PC, I do.

 

[Sadras]

PC: My character steps forward, planting left foot firmly into the ground securing his position, and swings upwards and with tentative concern for accuracy, aiming such that the fine masterwork long sword's blade should connect between the 3rd and 4th vertebra on the right side of the orc, taking care to ensure that the flesh meets the blade a third of its length in from the tip and that the force of the blow is increased in enthusiasm due to it being wielded in two hands, and that the hands are safely guarded in steel gauntlets to limit the kickback from the blow, and while performing this my character with much bravado and a tone of disgust, will exclaim loudly, beyond the sound of battle, a meaningful and intimidating "A-ha!"

DM: Roll 1d20 and add your attack modifiers.

PC: I forgot, after my exclamation, I will use my free use of interact with the environment/object to spit with ferocity on the orc, catching him in the face, using up any movement if need be to ensure the spittle reaches target.

DM: A-ha.

PC: Exactly!