Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E or Pathfinder 1E?

[CapnZapp]

1. Because Pathfinder seems to be doubling down on the bad parts of 3.X.

Assuming you mean PF2, this.

Another way of saying it:

Paizo shows zero evidence of learning WHY 5E is so successful.

The playtest comes across as completely tone deaf - a relic of ages past.

As opposed to something that actually builds upon the things 5E fix with d20 to make for a better game, a product that improves upon the competition.

 

[Aldarc]

Paizo shows zero evidence of learning WHY 5E is so successful.

You underestimate the power of the D&D brand itself. Pathfinder does not have the same luxury nor can it bank on a divisive edition of D&D. So I think that their concern is rightfully not about learning why 5e is so successful but why their core audience (who has not already moved to 5e) likes Pathfinder. You are already a lost cause, CapnZapp, so why should they care about a naysayer like you?

 

[JeffB]

So did anyone take a look/listen at the Twitch game of 2E yesterday Paizo people were talking about (Buhlman)?

I don't Twitch, and I checked the youtube channel but it's not up yet.

 

[Voadam]

Really? I've played a lot of Pathfinder and I don't think that's ever come up as an actual encounter. Why would your GM even bother running something like that let alone make them a common occurrence?

I guess if your level 20 fighter randomly decides to attack the local melon farmer it might pop up, but I cannot imagine a GM purposefully bringing such an encounter to her session.

You've never had really tanked out AC characters in mid level Pathfinder? I had this happen in running encounters straight out of the second and third modules in the official Reign of Winter Adventure Path. Its been a while but I remember in the third module which is levels 7-10 the sword and board fighter had an AC in the 30s when using his expertise feat actively. Looking on Page 26 of Mother Maiden Crone Poryphanes had 4 +9 melee attacks and his tendriculous has +11 and two +6s meaning natural 20s to hit. Similarly for all the Andrazku demons throughout the module with their 3 +10 melee attacks.

The other PCs had ACs in the teens to 20s at the same point so there was a wide disparity.

It is pretty easy to character build for high AC in pathfinder even just using core if you focus hard on it in your build, I had a PC who did for that campaign when I ran it.

I had a similar experience in high level 3.5 with a different player.

 

[DaveMage]

You've never had really tanked out AC characters in mid level Pathfinder? I had this happen in running encounters straight out of the second and third modules in the official Reign of Winter Adventure Path. Its been a while but I remember in the third module which is levels 7-10 the sword and board fighter had an AC in the 30s when using his expertise feat actively. Looking on Page 26 of Mother Maiden Crone Poryphanes had 4 +9 melee attacks and his tendriculous has +11 and two +6s meaning natural 20s to hit. Similarly for all the Andrazku demons throughout the module with their 3 +10 melee attacks.

The other PCs had ACs in the teens to 20s at the same point so there was a wide disparity.

It is pretty easy to character build for high AC in pathfinder even just using core if you focus hard on it in your build, I had a PC who did for that campaign when I ran it.

I had a similar experience in high level 3.5 with a different player.

Yeah, when I've run higher level PF1 games this issue has absolutely been a thing.

 

[Green Onceler]

Yeah, when I've run higher level PF1 games this issue has absolutely been a thing.

I see. I guess I would expect the GM to alter such encounters so that they are relevant.

However, fortunately, we do not have a very power gamey group. I don't think we've ever had a PC with a 30+ AC, despite our current campaign being at level 14. From the stories I read online, our group seems very atypical, for which I am always thankful.

 

[Voadam]

I see. I guess I would expect the GM to alter such encounters so that they are relevant.

Couple ways to do that

1) alter their tactics or change the choice of monster of the same CR to do non normal AC strike things like grapple, use spells or effects to target saves, touch attacks, feints, aid another, or simply target another PC.

2) alter the monster's attack bonus to challenge that PC's AC, but this means it is usually autohitting the others if it ends up going against them.

This does require not using the module straight, or the sandbox as it exists outside the PCs.

It is not as much of an issue in bounded accuracy systems as the variance is usually smaller.

However, fortunately, we do not have a very power gamey group. I don't think we've ever had a PC with a 30+ AC, despite our current campaign being at level 14. From the stories I read online, our group seems very atypical, for which I am always thankful.

I wouldn't even call it a big power gamey build, she did significantly less damage than the two-hander paladin or the magus, she was just annoying to run a melee combat against with her AC near immunity.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I see. I guess I would expect the GM to alter such encounters so that they are relevant.

If the GM changes the encounters so as to invalidate your choices, then what's the point of even playing?

One of the selling points for Pathfinder is that you can customize your character in meaningful ways. You can choose to have high AC, or good saves, or accuracy, or damage. You can choose to be a specialist, or a generalist.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

A monster with a +10 attack bonus against a tank knight with an AC of 30 is fairly irrelevant and poor game play at the table IMO. I found these "need a 20 to hit" combats uninteresting to run in 3e/PF and not that uncommon. A +3 attack bonus against a bounded accuracy tank AC of 19 is still a fight and the tank still feels like a tank next to the AC 14 nontanks.

I think we are looking for different things out of sandbox play and the difference in levels though.

That's entirely probable, given that I consider a +10 attack bonus against AC 30 to be a case where the player has made a meaningful choice. As a player, the inability to reach a reliable AC is one of the major problems I have with 5E. Being hit one-time-in-four, rather one-time-in-two, is fairly irrelevant; in neither case can I enter melee with the expectation of not getting hurt.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Let's say that each "best" choice increases your DPR by 0.5 dmg.

If you have a game with oh, 12 choices in your character design, you will have 6 more DPR than the "organic" character *IF* the organic characters makes only bad choices! (DPR wise). I think we're good.

But what if the game has 40-50 choices? Now suddenly, due to the cumulative effects of all these decisions, the optimized character is much, much better.

The issue there is when every single choice interacts with DPS. Pathfinder 1E was very much guilty of that, where it seemed like every possible choice point gave an option between something useful and something not-useful. Traits were fun, up until they introduced traits that improved your combat performance, at which point they became a tax.

You could address that by having different groups of choices, which don't interact with each other. Maybe you get a DPS-type feat at levels 2/6/10, and those interact with accuracy or damage or targeting; but you also get a defense feat at levels 4/8/12, which gives HP or AC or saves; and a skill feat at level 1/5/9, which increases your bonus or gives you new skill usages or training in new skills. As long as you don't have to choose between useful things and non-useful things at the same decision-point, you can offer a lot of choices without worrying as much about how they combine.

One of the major design differences between the most recent editions of GURPS and Shadowrun is that GURPS gives you a single pool of points with which to buy everything (and you can even sell back stats, to get extra points for skills or powers), where Shadowrun gives you points that are explicitly tagged for stats and skills and powers and gear. The silo-ing off of different character parameters goes a long way to prevent the sort of shenanigans that happen with GURPS.