If there's one game where stat differences are justified, what game would that be?

CapnZapp · May 17, 2019

(Feel free to answer "none")

In my case, however, it would be rpgs about Conan.

I can't help it - I know Howard's Conan is sexist (and racist), and yet, that's (part of) what draws me to that universe and those stories. Does that make me a sexist or racist in real-life? No, not more than killing monsters makes me a murderer in real-life, but whatever - that's not the point, so if it makes you feel better let's say my answer is "yep; now moving on".

Yes, I consider Frazetta-like imagery (in text as well as actual images) an important value-adder to the prospect of playing in the Hyborian Age.

Note: in many games (including 5E D&D) you can play a straight-up Fighter with no Strength at all. In other words, this isn't about restricting access to particular classes.

Saelorn said:
For a significant period in the eighties and nineties, it was not uncommon for a game to present stat modifiers based on the gender of the character. More often then not, men would have a bonus to Strength and women would have a bonus to Dexterity or Charisma or something. Some particularly egregious examples would just give women penalties across the board.

And then one day, someone realized that it was a bad idea. They realized that most of it was based on out-dated stereotypes, it didn't have a place in modern gaming, and it was better to let female characters be on an equal footing with their male counterparts. Eventually, the rest of the community got on board with that, and now the only games that include gender-based stat modifiers are those old games which we critique for being so ridiculous.

Now imagine that you're excited for this new Conan game that's coming out, and the first thing you notice when you crack open the .pdf is that women are -2 to Thews and +2 to Seduce. How would that make you feel about the game as a whole? Would you just accept it as something common in a lot of other games? Or would you find it distasteful, and be disappointed in the game for including it? Would you house rule it away? Would you be comfortable joining a group that was playing the game, without knowing how they handled the issue? Or would you cringe, every time it came up?

(I took this quote out of context. Visit the original thread for that context. It is not important here)

My answer is: if I get to choose one game where stereotypes doesn't just exist, but are put front and center, I'd choose a Conan game. (Note how Barsoom, normally considered a close relative, doesn't qualify. There you can have incredible Strength with a medium build just as long as you come from another planet.)

If we're using 5E D&D as our example game (not because it does Conan particularly well, but because it's the game most people are familiar with), I'd probably go with -4 to Strength (minimum 8).

No compensation. (That doesn't mean I'm dismissing findings of other gender-related biological differences, just that I don't consider them significant enough in this context).

Remember, the goal is very simple, very direct: if your hero is a hulking brute in this universe, he's male. Every other archetype is left unregulated.

Also remember: if you think my goal is "to piss off gamers", you're free to not join the game (and this thread too). I'm not intentionally trying to piss you off. I'm trying to discuss if the "no gendered stats, ever" rule can have exceptions.

PS. You might wonder: but if we're going with this (warped for sure) "Hyborian logic", isn't every other female a beautiful seductress? Well, since I expect players to put their high scores elsewhere (than Strength) this kind of happens automatically. That is, the character is more likely to end up with a high Charisma. But if the player wants Dexterity or Intelligence, that's fine too. (If anything, adding +4 Charisma (max 20) to Barsoom/John Carter females makes more sense. After all, it's imagery is even more cheesecakery than Conan, which is saying something.)

Ovinomancer · May 17, 2019

Well. This happened.

cmad1977 · May 17, 2019

If there aren’t magic shoppes printed in the game what will we do if they players want them? Will there be a detailed and itemized list of available items?

If not, it’s lazy design. Gendered stats or not.

cmad1977 · May 17, 2019

Ovinomancer said:
Well. This happened.

Better than nothing happening I suppose.

No. I’m wrong.

Gradine · May 17, 2019

Oh boy.

So, I don't expect this thread to have much of a shelf life, but while it lasts let's address the two main issues with this.

First: stereotypes are bad. Like, objectively terrible. Yes, even positive stereotypes. Yes, even if they're grounded in some element of truth. There are many reasons for this, an important one of which relates to the second main issue, but this really should be accepted on its face. The stereotypes presented in the speculative fiction you've mentioned are especially egregious, both in terms of gender and race. Being attracted to that kind of fiction, and especially wanting to recreate fiction that reinforces those stereotypes, is incredibly troubling. Especially when you mention that those stereotypes are part of the appeal, rather than something we critically dismiss or even just try to flat out ignore because we happen to like the other, non-horrible aspects of it (see also: the enduring legacy of Lovecraft).

In any case, the second main issue is that of the "baseline". The best example of this is D&D's treatment of humans. Humans are the baseline, the "average", and every other race is presented in how they differ from that base. Now, D&D has even moved away from this in 4e and beyond, but this still makes a bit of sense. After all, until we have the technology to teach our pets how to talk and roll dice, anyone who is going to play D&D is going to be a human.

So you can imagine the problems that can come when an entirely uncritical white male decides to take the same approach to gender or ethnicity. We tend to associate the "baseline" as the norm, and thus any indicators that differ from it are definitionally abnormal. Now, there's not much issue with declaring elves or hobbits abnormal when 100% of your audience is human. But when the "norm" is male and it's only females who have penalties/bonuses, that says something about the game and who it thinks is the "normal" player.

Now, that doesn't mean that there aren't going to be female Conan fans who aren't going to want to play a dark seductress; there almost certainly are. But it does mean that any female Conan fan who doesn't want to play that type of character is going to feel pigeon-holed and singled out; even if the penalties/bonuses "balance out", they're still going to feel like they don't have the same degree of freedom to create their character than a male PC. That's a problem no matter what property you're trying to adapt.

And that's just gender... I'm not going touch the way this could possibly interact with ethnicity with a ten-foot pole. Needless to say, no serious product is going to hit the market with any kind of mechanic like that; certainly not modeled off real-world ethnicity the way Conan was (and, to a lesser extent and more allegorically but still very much present, Barsoom).

Guest 6801328 · May 17, 2019

Only if the females get reciprocally higher Intelligence and Wisdom scores.

Celebrim · May 17, 2019

Meh. I'd never do it in a fantasy setting of any sort.

The only setting I can imagine doing it in was a hard realism historical setting where you used some sort of character burner to establish life histories, and out of either slavish or respectful (your pick) adherence to the reality of the setting your characters life path and available choices prior to the start of play depended on their gender.

As for Conan, there were powerful warrior women in the setting, and I don't think the source material is good enough to justify either slavish or respectful treatment of it to a high degree. It's enough to be inspired by the material, at least for me. In general, I think it would be enough for me to be inspired by the material even if it is a real world historical setting, but if I was doing an RPG in say Heian Japan I think I'd be inclined to be so respectful of the setting, that the sexism of the setting (with respect to both genders!) would be baked into the game and part of what is being explored.