D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

[Zardnaar]

Every single character cares about AC. If you want to pretend that only front-liners do, then cross off all the ranged attackers whom light armor gives a good AC as well, all the casting clerics with heavy armor who want to be protected, etc. But I can tell you we often have squishies in the back line targeted, be it to kill them off or to break concentration.

It isn't at all the same as weapons for non-weapon wielders - those get used infrequently while every character gets attacked.



You are exactly right, now follow your statement to it's conclusion.

Unless your character build invests heavily in DEX, Medium Armor is superior to Light Armor. Your valor bard who's boosting CHR, your clerics who's domain don't grant heavy armor and will never have have a reason to increase DEX - but are still up there casting spirit guardians (or just don't want to be hit to keep up concentration buffs), and so on. There are plenty of classes that are not served by pumping all of their ASIs into DEX but still don't want to be hit.

With the default array it's really only good on ranged spellcasters that don't want to melee. It's because of MAD.

A melee cleric us going to want decent Dex, con, strength and wisdom all benefit from being 14 or higher.

A ranged cleric is perfectly fine with 14 Dex/con and can buff wisdom. Very good for nature clerics and light clerics.

Rangers also are decent with medium armor and they can buff strength.

It's also ok in that situation where you have 20 strength and 16 Dex and take medium armor master.

Valor bards are in the same boat as melee clerics using medium armor. ,4 decent stats with the default array is rough.

With rolled stats medium armor is better if you have higher than average ability scores. The Valor hard starts looking a lot better with 4 scores of 14 to 18 level one.

Since most games don't go past level 10 you only have 2 ASIs for the most part unless you're a fighter. Fighters function fine on two decent stats, so do Rogues.

It's almost a waste of time being a melee based primary caster trying to use medium armor with the default array.

Note Hexblades can use it well as they can hit 14 Dex and con and put all ASIs into charisma.

You really need to know how to use it, otherwise if you're a primary caster always go ranged. It's a big reason why valor bards are regarded as weaker than lore bards. Light clerics for example are very meh at melee but make a very good invoker substitute.

 

[gargoyleking]

I think you're also missing that Med Armor Master also negates the stealth penalty on Scale and Half-plate. I'm currently playing a fighter in scale who's just as stealthy in scale as many 1st level rogues are in light armor. With his shield he also rocks an AC 19 and is quite tanky in design. Of course, I had an amazing ability roll and he had plenty of bonuses to go around. (Except for Int. The guy is dumb as a rock.)

 

[Mistwell]

I really wish that medium armor was a point higher than light or heavy armor, given that it requires both proficiency and a high score to benefit.

Uh, all three types require proficiency and a medium to high score to benefit. You need a high dex for light, a medium dex for medium (it tops out at 14 unless you take a feat, so not sure where you are getting a "high" score requirement), and a medium strength for heavy (heavy actually requires one point higher than medium - a 15 strength). And you need proficiency for all of them to gain their benefits.

Also, I am not following you guys on the ACs. Let's track it.

Light Armor: Base AC 12 (Studded). Starting Dex 16 = AC 15. TWO ASIs in Dex = AC 17.
Medium Armor: Base AC 15 (Half Plate). Starting Dex 16 = AC 17. One ASI in Medium Armor Master = AC 18.
Heavy Armor: Base AC 18 (Plate). Starting Str 15.

So the Light Armor guy needs two ASIs to get to one less AC as the Medium Armor guy gets with just one ASI and the Heavy Armor guy gets with zero (though the heavy armor guy spends a lot more gold, has disadvantage on stealth, something the Medium Armor guy fixed with that same feat they took).

What am I missing here guys? Medium armor gets you to a higher AC than Light armor, and with fewer ASIs to get there.

What is the issue here with Medium Armor?

 

[ZenBear]

In my opinion, the greater problem is that you must have heavy armor proficiency in order to play a solid STR build, Barbarians and Tortles being the only exceptions. The fact that medium armor is still DEX reliant, even though it is to a lesser extent than light, only reinforces DEX as the god stat. In my games I homebrew bows to be finesse, allowing STR or DEX for ranged attacks, which has gone a long way to bridging this gap, but medium armor has been on my radar as needing a fix as well. Not to say it needs a buff, but rather a change to allow users to dump DEX without being punished on their AC or taxed a feat to get heavy armor. Not sure how to accomplish this, but perhaps your proposed division of light/medium and medium/heavy could serve. L/M require DEX but no disadvantage on stealth, M/H have no stat requirements but impose disadvantage on stealth.

 

[gargoyleking]

DeX isn't a god stat by any means. Yes, there's a lot that it can be used for, but it's just one of many attributes. Strength is more than just melee smashiness, it's required for carry weight, anything to do with athletics and escaping more than one spell effect. Con is a sleeper stat with no proficiencies, but it's a critical attribute for survival both in HP, but against several effects itself. Int Wis and Charisma all have their assorted uses, but any of the three can be used as a dump stat far more easily than the physical abilities.

If there's any one problem with the system, it's that dex and con are the two hardest classes to justify using as a dump stat. At least dex has heavy armor prof in that regard. Nobody wants to run around with a 6 Con.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What am I missing here guys? Medium armor gets you to a higher AC than Light armor, and with fewer ASIs to get there.

What is the issue here with Medium Armor?

If I had to venture a guess, its that you gave the Medium Armor wearer Half-Plate, which costs 750 gp. I suspect folks are looking at it from the perspective of what PCs can afford at 1st level, which means either Chain Shirt or Scale Mail.

Personally, I think that's kind of silly... seeing as how all we seem to hear is all about how there's nothing for PCs to spend their money on, and yet we won't give the Medium Armor user Half-Plate in these discussions (a perfectly reasonable thing to spend their GP on.) And thus your comments are on target.

 

[Xeviat]

Uh, all three types require proficiency and a medium to high score to benefit. You need a high dex for light, a medium dex for medium (it tops out at 14 unless you take a feat, so not sure where you are getting a "high" score requirement), and a medium strength for heavy (heavy actually requires one point higher than medium - a 15 strength). And you need proficiency for all of them to gain their benefits.

Also, I am not following you guys on the ACs. Let's track it.

Light Armor: Base AC 12 (Studded). Starting Dex 16 = AC 15. TWO ASIs in Dex = AC 17.
Medium Armor: Base AC 15 (Half Plate). Starting Dex 16 = AC 17. One ASI in Medium Armor Master = AC 18.
Heavy Armor: Base AC 18 (Plate). Starting Str 15.

So the Light Armor guy needs two ASIs to get to one less AC as the Medium Armor guy gets with just one ASI and the Heavy Armor guy gets with zero (though the heavy armor guy spends a lot more gold, has disadvantage on stealth, something the Medium Armor guy fixed with that same feat they took).

What am I missing here guys? Medium armor gets you to a higher AC than Light armor, and with fewer ASIs to get there.

What is the issue here with Medium Armor?

"Everyone" is missing that spending an ASI on Medium Armor mastery is (and I'm not going to use the "feats are optional" defense since I use feats) a feat that doesn't grant an ASI. The light or heavy armor character, using their 2 ASIs for Str, Dex, or their casting stat (for heavy clerics; the speed penalty isn't going to be too bad unless they're also a melee cleric) boosts their attack score. Yes, Medium Armor mastery with a Dex of 16 puts you into Heavy Armor AC range, but who is going to be pushing for a Dex 16 that isn't a dex attacker? A 14 Dex is already expensive for someone who isn't a Dex attacker; it limits character choices to certain race/subraces or requires a character to go for a lower Con.

Again, Light armor and Heavy armor get +2 AC over your early career just from doing the things you'd normally be doing (upping Dex or looting/purchasing gear). This is the discrepancy I'm looking at.

I feel like "no stealth penalty" medium armor might not be needed. The ranger is really the only class that this falls under, and a stealth ranger is probably going to be a Dex build. Make one track of medium armor, and set it so the 3 armors (excluding inferior Hide) match up against Studded with Dex 16/18/20 with +1 AC so medium is an improvement (but it comes with the stealth penalty).

 

[gargoyleking]

I disagree. I play in a few games where group checks, including stealth, are sometimes used. One of them had us get caught up in an encounter we very much had hoped to avoid until later simply for want of achieving a specific objective first. In the end, our cleric basically fumbled so badly that we couldn't avoid it. Not saying that everyone wants or needs to focus on stealth, but sometimes a party can be set up to be at least moderately stealthy as a whole. Which this feat can help with. And nobody expects the sneaky meatwall.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Unless your character build invests heavily in DEX, Medium Armor is superior to Light Armor. Your valor bard who's boosting CHR, your clerics who's domain don't grant heavy armor and will never have have a reason to increase DEX - but are still up there casting spirit guardians (or just don't want to be hit to keep up concentration buffs), and so on. There are plenty of classes that are not served by pumping all of their ASIs into DEX but still don't want to be hit.

Your valor bard who's boosting Charisma, doesn't actually care about armor. It's a secondary concern, at best. We know that they don't care about armor, because they're leaving AC on the table. If they actually cared about armor, then they'd wear light armor, and pump their Dexterity rather than their Charisma.

That's the problem with medium armor. It's the "I don't really care" of armor.

 

[77IM]

I think the deeper problem here is that 5E really encourages pumping your primary attack stat and dumping everything else (except Con).

Dex-warrior: Pump Dex, get all the Dex goodies, dump Str, still have good AC due to light armor.
Str-warrior: Pump Str, get all the heavy weapon goodies, dump Dex, still have a good AC due to heavy armor.

To me, those cases do not count as "investing" in AC because increasing your primary attack stat is already an attractive option for the other benefits. There's no trade-off regarding AC; you don't have to pick between being good at your primary job and having AC. (There is a trade-off regarding other functions of the ability scores, like skills and saves.)

Barbarian/cleric/ranger/valor-bard/etc.: Pump your primary attack stat, get all its goodies, but wait, now you have a choice: Either divert some ability score points into Dex (and possibly a feat) or suffer a lower AC due to medium armor. There's a trade-off to be made. This is in addition to the trade-offs you're making regarding the other functions of ability scores. And the pain here is that you can't choose to ignore AC because you are going to get attacked.

For example, if you're playing a Str-based fighter in plate, you can choose to get a little Dex and have a decent ranged attack, or you can dump Dex and just choose to deal with distant attackers a different way (e.g., your superb Athletics modifier, or the occasional javelin). But if you're playing a Str-based ranger in scale or half-plate, you can get a little Dex and have a decent ranged attack and AC, but if you dump Dex your AC suffers along with your ranged attack (and Stealth, etc.). That's not something that happens to characters that go pure-Dex or pure-Str.

I find it kinda backwards; getting the good AC should require more difficult trade-offs, not fewer.