D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

[Fenris-77]

Medium Armour isn't so much the "I don't really care" of armor so much as it is the "I'm salty because I can't have my cake and eat it too" of armor

To restate some eloquent points from upstream...

Most characters who aren't specifically STR built are probably (if they're sensible) going to be DEX attackers, even without a maxed DEX (because they are smart cookies and are dumping STR). However, lots of those classes aren't in a position to max DEX because they have, you know, actual class abilities to worry about first. That's a lot of character types right there. So what does a PC with only moderate DEX and no HA proficiency wear into battle? Medium Armor, working as designed since 2014.

 

[Xeviat]

I think the deeper problem here is that 5E really encourages pumping your primary attack stat and dumping everything else (except Con).

Dex-warrior: Pump Dex, get all the Dex goodies, dump Str, still have good AC due to light armor.
Str-warrior: Pump Str, get all the heavy weapon goodies, dump Dex, still have a good AC due to heavy armor.

To me, those cases do not count as "investing" in AC because increasing your primary attack stat is already an attractive option for the other benefits. There's no trade-off regarding AC; you don't have to pick between being good at your primary job and having AC. (There is a trade-off regarding other functions of the ability scores, like skills and saves.)

Barbarian/cleric/ranger/valor-bard/etc.: Pump your primary attack stat, get all its goodies, but wait, now you have a choice: Either divert some ability score points into Dex (and possibly a feat) or suffer a lower AC due to medium armor. There's a trade-off to be made. This is in addition to the trade-offs you're making regarding the other functions of ability scores. And the pain here is that you can't choose to ignore AC because you are going to get attacked.

For example, if you're playing a Str-based fighter in plate, you can choose to get a little Dex and have a decent ranged attack, or you can dump Dex and just choose to deal with distant attackers a different way (e.g., your superb Athletics modifier, or the occasional javelin). But if you're playing a Str-based ranger in scale or half-plate, you can get a little Dex and have a decent ranged attack and AC, but if you dump Dex your AC suffers along with your ranged attack (and Stealth, etc.). That's not something that happens to characters that go pure-Dex or pure-Str.

I find it kinda backwards; getting the good AC should require more difficult trade-offs, not fewer.

This is exactly it. Thank you.

All I'm asking for is for medium armor to either have 2 new armors for their 2nd upgrades (and change medium-armor master), or to change medium armor to a 1 track armor with 3 viable armors of increasing costs. This way, for someone with 14 Dex, medium armor at least continuously equals the AC of Light or Heavy Armor; they paid for that with ability points.

When I'm building a medium armor wearing character, it's often a struggle deciding whether to put a 14 in Dex or Con. I'd like to get something more worthwhile out of that choice.

 

[gargoyleking]

You can be a str based fighter and still rock enough dex to make rocking medium armor desirable. There are disadvantages, sure, but everything you do in character design is a trade-off. Even rolling dice for attributes is accepting a risk to hopefully achieve better stats than regular point buy or the standard array can give you.

 

[Xeviat]

You can be a str based fighter and still rock enough dex to make rocking medium armor desirable. There are disadvantages, sure, but everything you do in character design is a trade-off. Even rolling dice for attributes is accepting a risk to hopefully achieve better stats than regular point buy or the standard array can give you.

If you're making this choice to avoid the stealth skill penalty, you're taking a -2 AC penalty wearing Breastplate with a 14 Dex over wearing Plate; sure, you save 1,100 gp, but there isn't much you can buy for that (potions?) to make up for the lost AC. That's a sizable "disadvantage".

All I'm suggesting is for there to be a more expensive medium armor that would bring that down to a -1 AC penalty, which already seems to be where the game is balancing the stealth trade off based on the medium armors.

 

[Fenris-77]

[MENTION=57494]Xeviat[/MENTION] - So the proposition is that there should be an available GP investment that can replace an additional portion of AC advance through DEX via ASI? Or to put it another way, you want the option via GP to raise the max AC that doesn't impact DEX 14 by 1?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

 

[Xeviat]

@Xeviat - So the proposition is that there should be an available GP investment that can replace an additional portion of AC advance through DEX via ASI? Or to put it another way, you want the option via GP to raise the max AC that doesn't impact DEX 14 by 1?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

At 1st level, a Dex 14 character with Chainshirt has the same AC 15 as someone with Dex 16 and Studded Leather.
At 1st level, a Dex 14 character with Scalemail has the same AC 16 as someone with Chainmail.
At 1st level, someone with Chainmail has +1 AC over someone with Dex 16 and Studded Leather.

At 4th level, the Studded Leather wearer can get +2 Dex, for AC 16. The medium armor wearer can upgrade to Breastplate by then for the same AC 16, or Half Plate for AC 17. The Heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Splint for the same AC 17.

At 8th level, the Studded Leather wearer can get a final +2 Dex, for AC 17. The heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Plate for AC 18. The medium armor wearer doesn't have an armor upgrade, unless the breastplate wearer accepts the stealth penalty to switch to Half Plate (or spends an ASI on medium armor mastery, neglecting their attack stat).

So yes, like heavy armor, I'd like medium armor to have a further upgrade. Non-stealth penalty medium armor with a Dex of 14 should match light armor, and stealth penalty medium armor with a Dex of 14 should match heavy armor; the Dex is the investment, and we're likely to still see people with Dex 10 or 12 in medium armor because their class/build doesn't offer heavy.

 

[Blue]

Your valor bard who's boosting Charisma, doesn't actually care about armor. It's a secondary concern, at best. We know that they don't care about armor, because they're leaving AC on the table. If they actually cared about armor, then they'd wear light armor, and pump their Dexterity rather than their Charisma.

That's the problem with medium armor. It's the "I don't really care" of armor.

Your statement works out to be that I can only care about AC if I care about it more than anything else. This is trivially seen as incorrect.

I can prioritize my number of bardic inspirations, save DCs, and social skills as my #1 priority for my valor bard while still quite caring about my AC.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Your statement works out to be that I can only care about AC if I care about it more than anything else. This is trivially seen as incorrect.

It's just a matter of perspective. It's not something you can argue as logically invalid.

Personally, I will say that if you don't care enough to optimize your AC for your character class, then from my perspective, you don't really care about AC. If you tell me that you care about AC, but that you care about your spellcasting more than you care about your AC, then that's saying to me that you don't really care about your AC. Your second priority (even assuming it's second, and not third or fourth) is not really your priority.

Ergo, medium armor is for people who don't care about their armor. If they'd actually made it a priority, then they would use light or heavy armor.

 

[gargoyleking]

If you're making this choice to avoid the stealth skill penalty, you're taking a -2 AC penalty wearing Breastplate with a 14 Dex over wearing Plate; sure, you save 1,100 gp, but there isn't much you can buy for that (potions?) to make up for the lost AC. That's a sizable "disadvantage".

All I'm suggesting is for there to be a more expensive medium armor that would bring that down to a -1 AC penalty, which already seems to be where the game is balancing the stealth trade off based on the medium armors.

I think maybe you're selectively reading comments to expound your flawed arguement. No, with the medium armor master feat, that self-same character will have the same AC in half-plate as a full plate wearing fighter with dex as a dump stat. AND they can still be sneaky if they like.

 

[Xeviat]

Your statement works out to be that I can only care about AC if I care about it more than anything else. This is trivially seen as incorrect.

I can prioritize my number of bardic inspirations, save DCs, and social skills as my #1 priority for my valor bard while still quite caring about my AC.

But just a few levels earlier, that choice to not have the stealth penalty only cost you 1 AC. That's my point! I think medium armor is balanced at the lower levels before Dex 20 or Plate armor are available.