D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

[Blue]

It's just a matter of perspective. It's not something you can argue as logically invalid.

You are incorrect. This is not subjective, it IS possible to care about more than one thing and have one having a higher priority then the others.

Personally, I will say that if you don't care enough to optimize your AC for your character class, then from my perspective, you don't really care about AC. If you tell me that you care about AC, but that you care about your spellcasting more than you care about your AC, then that's saying to me that you don't really care about your AC.

Now this is subjective. And also easily disproved.

With a +3 DEX mod, my valor bard could easily have kept the studded leather I was wearing when I hit 3rd and got medium armor proficiency. And kept their AC of 15. But instead I spent a good chunk (750gp!) of my character's limited gold to get Half Plate for AC 17.

Shown: I care about AC, I want it higher and am willing to spend limited resources on it.

Previously shown: I was using my ASIs to advance CHR, so I can care about something else as a higher priority.

Conclusion: It is very possible to care about AC without caring about it first.

Your attempts to say that if it's not #1 then it's nothing are not supported by logic. Or common sense.

 

[Blue]

At 8th level, the Studded Leather wearer can get a final +2 Dex, for AC 17. The heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Plate for AC 18. The medium armor wearer doesn't have an armor upgrade, unless the breastplate wearer accepts the stealth penalty to switch to Half Plate (or spends an ASI on medium armor mastery, neglecting their attack stat).

You said it right here. The light armro person is spending an ASI/feat on +2 DEX, and a medium armor person is spending the same ASI/feat on Medium Armor Mastery.

It is unreasonable to expect that you should get the same AC from medium armor if you aren't willing to invest an ASI/feat in it the same way you were investing an ASI/feat for +2 DEX.

Now, if you want the Dex for other reasons, go for it. On the other hand there are plenty of characters with a more moderate DEX where investing for DEX 20 would be several ASI/feats. Medium is the clear winner in efficiency there.

Remember, we're not talking just DEX/STR-primary characters. We've got casters with medium armor proficiency (esp clerics) who care a lot about not getting hit to keep concentration but don't care enough not to advance their casting stat. Even some that have heavy armor prof, but don't have a high STR.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

With a +3 DEX mod, my valor bard could easily have kept the studded leather I was wearing when I hit 3rd and got medium armor proficiency. And kept their AC of 15. But instead I spent a good chunk (750gp!) of my character's limited gold to get Half Plate for AC 17.

Shown: I care about AC, I want it higher and am willing to spend limited resources on it.

Limited resources? What possible alternatives were you choosing between?

If you're given a choice between pizza or nothing, and you choose the pizza, then that's not an argument in favor of how much you love pizza. If AC isn't a priority for you, and you only bother to improve it when there's negligible opportunity cost, then that's not an argument about how greatly you value AC. If you want to honestly claim that you care about something, then you have to prove that you value it more than something else.

You're being disingenuous in your argument.

 

[Blue]

Limited resources? What possible alternatives were you choosing between?

If you're given a choice between pizza or nothing, and you choose the pizza, then that's not an argument in favor of how much you love pizza. If AC isn't a priority for you, and you only bother to improve it when there's negligible opportunity cost, then that's not an argument about how greatly you value AC. If you want to honestly claim that you care about something, then you have to prove that you value it more than something else.

You're being disingenuous in your argument.

750gp at 3rd level for +2 AC was a big deal. It was not "pizza or nothing", since I already said I could have kept the studded leather and AC 15, but instead splurged for half plate when I got medium armor proficiency with my subclass.

From that, claiming that I was disingenuous seems like you didn't get the point I wrote since you are arguing things that aren't what I addressed.

If you would like to argue that in a campaign I was in, my character's share of the treasure wasn't severely impacted by 750gp, you are welcome to. But you actually can't - you have no idea how much gold was given out.

But really, who cares? The simple fact is that I was NOT saying 750gp is a balance point for armors, I was just using that to show that I did care about AC and was willing to make a sacrifice to advance it.

Here's my entire thesis for your thread, so you stop trying to cherry pick details and potentially miss some that make your whole reply incorrect:

It is possible to care about AC while caring about your Casting ability score and advancing it first. Not advancing your DEX before anything else is not an indication that you don't care about AC at all.

Nice and large so it's easy not to miss.

 

[77IM]

You said it right here. The light armro person is spending an ASI/feat on +2 DEX, and a medium armor person is spending the same ASI/feat on Medium Armor Mastery.

It is unreasonable to expect that you should get the same AC from medium armor if you aren't willing to invest an ASI/feat in it the same way you were investing an ASI/feat for +2 DEX.

The light armor person is getting substantially more than +1 AC from their investment. They are getting skills, saves, and in all likelihood, attacks. The medium-armor person gets +1 AC and not much more, plus they must already have Dex 16 to benefit from that.

- If the character is primarily Dex-based, they get more bang for their buck by wearing the light armor and going up to Dex 18.
- If the character is not primarily Dex-based, then the odds are slim that they have Dex 16, so Medium Armor Mastery does not help them at all.

Remember, we're not talking just DEX/STR-primary characters. We've got casters with medium armor proficiency (esp clerics) who care a lot about not getting hit to keep concentration but don't care enough not to advance their casting stat. Even some that have heavy armor prof, but don't have a high STR.

Well, that's a good point. But it does make it sound like medium armor is deliberately worse than light or heavy. I mean, there are simple-weapon users who benefit from melee attacks, but nobody disputes that simple weapons are worse than martial weapons (by design).

Is medium armor really meant to be "simple armor" for people who can't wear plate and aren't fast enough to zip around in studded leather?

 

[Fenris-77]

At 1st level, a Dex 14 character with Chainshirt has the same AC 15 as someone with Dex 16 and Studded Leather.
At 1st level, a Dex 14 character with Scalemail has the same AC 16 as someone with Chainmail.
At 1st level, someone with Chainmail has +1 AC over someone with Dex 16 and Studded Leather.

At 4th level, the Studded Leather wearer can get +2 Dex, for AC 16. The medium armor wearer can upgrade to Breastplate by then for the same AC 16, or Half Plate for AC 17. The Heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Splint for the same AC 17.

At 8th level, the Studded Leather wearer can get a final +2 Dex, for AC 17. The heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Plate for AC 18. The medium armor wearer doesn't have an armor upgrade, unless the breastplate wearer accepts the stealth penalty to switch to Half Plate (or spends an ASI on medium armor mastery, neglecting their attack stat).

So yes, like heavy armor, I'd like medium armor to have a further upgrade. Non-stealth penalty medium armor with a Dex of 14 should match light armor, and stealth penalty medium armor with a Dex of 14 should match heavy armor; the Dex is the investment, and we're likely to still see people with Dex 10 or 12 in medium armor because their class/build doesn't offer heavy.

One PC there is investing in DEX, another is investing in STR. What is the middle road character in your example investing his advances in if it's neither of those?

I'll just tell you, because there's only one answer- spellcasters, and not spellcasters for the most part who are even pretending to be melee capable. So Wizards and Sorcerers who've managed to upgrade to MA, and dudes like the Warlock and maybe some flavors of Bard, plus a bunch of non-melee Clerics. Those are not characters who have ever, in the history of the game, been top-drawer AC characters without magic items. I don't think they should be either. Nor do I support the assertion that all armor tiers should be capable of hitting the same AC. Full or half DEX mod allows a wide range of other abilities and bonuses that are already unavailable to the HA wearer, so I'm not fashed that the HA AC can be one better. I think light and medium armor users should count themselves lucky that the gap isn't wider than that.

The characters in question are pretty much universally full spellcasters, and those characters have a ton of other options and toys. Or....

You are going to use the counter example of a fighter who has moderate Dex and still wants to stealth (or pursue a career in rhythmic gymnastics). That is a legitimate example, but to that character I'd say that 1 AC isn't a huge price to pay to be able to walk on both sides of the track. Even then, a conscious decision would have to be made not to invest in DEX, and that's entering into you get what you pay for territory - fighters have the most ASIs for exactly this reason.

I guess that leaves us at a fundamental disagreement in principle. I'm OK with that.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Here's my entire thesis for your thread, so you stop trying to cherry pick details and potentially miss some that make your whole reply incorrect:

It is possible to care about AC while caring about your Casting ability score and advancing it first. Not advancing your DEX before anything else is not an indication that you don't care about AC at all.

Nice and large so it's easy not to miss.

And here's my rebuttal:

If you aren't willing to make any meaningful sacrifices or trade-offs in the name of AC, then you can't honestly claim that you care about AC. If you only improve it when there is no opportunity cost, then that is not an indication that you care about AC at all.

 

[Fenris-77]

That's a ridiculous statement. Prioritizing, for example, a casting stat over DEX is not, in no way shape or form, an indication that you don't care about AC. You are entirely misrepresenting Blue's position.

 

[DEFCON 1]

And once we get out of the white room and at the actual tables, we soon realize that the stealth penalties to armor don't even really matter because if sneaking is ever important to the party, there's gonna be a ranger or druid or shadow monk etc. etc. etc. casting Pass Without Trace and negating the issues with the disadvantage.

 

[Mistwell]

If I had to venture a guess, its that you gave the Medium Armor wearer Half-Plate, which costs 750 gp. I suspect folks are looking at it from the perspective of what PCs can afford at 1st level, which means either Chain Shirt or Scale Mail.

Personally, I think that's kind of silly... seeing as how all we seem to hear is all about how there's nothing for PCs to spend their money on, and yet we won't give the Medium Armor user Half-Plate in these discussions (a perfectly reasonable thing to spend their GP on.) And thus your comments are on target.

OK at level 1 a chain shirt with a dex of 16 is AC 15, while at level 1 the studded leather guy with dex of 16 is at AC 14. So....?