D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

[The Crimson Binome]

1. I cared enough about AC to pick up valor bard for the armor even though I wasn't focusing on weapon attacks. Subclass spent for AC = meaningful trade off. Care about AC, CONFIRMED BY YOUR DEFINITION.

Eh. You could argue that, but a sub-class is really too large of an entity to weigh solely in terms of its armor proficiency. There's a lot weighing on both sides of that balance, for it to be any evidence of just this one thing.

2. I spent the vast majority of my share of our treasure up to that point (750gp for a 3rd level character) to get Half Plate, to increase my AC just by 2 points (AC 25 - studded leather and +3 DEX to AC 17 Half plate and + DEX). Those could have been healing potions, or all sorts of things. Meaningful sacrifice/trade off. Care about AC, CONFIRMED BY YOUR DEFINITION.

Cash has no value in 5E. Your choice was between better armor, and nothing of note. That's not a meaningful trade-off by any definition of the term.

Do you accept that each armor type can be best depending on the character, or are you going to change your definition again?

I admit that I was wrong about the AC values involved, and half-plate really is just as good as studded leather.

 

[Zardnaar]

I ran a dual wielder Barbarian and did very well actually. Also, I didn't say it was efficient, only that you can do it. You're arguing that Medium armor sucks and quite frankly, you've been mathematically proven wrong. But please, tell us again how you can't compare half-plate to studded leather.

I covered that earlier, Barbarian is one of those classes that can make medium armor work.

14 Dex, 14 con, and 16 strength (or primary stat).

Any class that can do that medium armor works fine. Mostly thats anything that's not a primary caster and wants to melee.

Casters can also make medium armor work but their primary stat is spellcastering one and the go ranged. One exception to that is the nature cleric who can key everything off wisdom.

Assuming default array. I had a good valor bard as I rolled high stats, if I roll low I'll go with rogue, fighter or moon druid depending on how low they are.

 

[gargoyleking]

I covered that earlier, Barbarian is one of those classes that can make medium armor work.

Actually, the barbarian comment was more as a response to somebody saying that the dual wielder feat sucks. Not much is scarier than a raging barbarian rocking a warhammer and a battleaxe for fun and smashing.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Half Plate is not comparable to Studded with Dex 20. Half plate has the stealth penalty, studded doesn't. Studded with Dex 18 is equal to Breastplate in AC and a lack of a stealth penalty. Half-Plate with Dex 14 has equal AC as splint.

My point is Light armor and the light Mediums, and Heavy armor and the heavy Mediums, are equal in AC/stealth penalties in the early levels. Medium then stops progressing. That's the point I'm making. Dex/Light armor characters get +2 to AC as part of their rather standard progression. Heavy armor characters get +2 AC as part of their rather standard progression. Medium only gets +1, unless you switch types and accept the stealth penalty.

A Dex 20 Ranger has no reason to use their medium armor proficiency. If we had a weird Dex 20 Archer fighter, they'd at least get +1 AC in return to their stealth penalty (and speed penalty if they don't have Str 15) by putting on Plate.

TLR
Medium armor with 14 Dex starts equal to Light with 16 Dex or Heavy, but it does not keep up.

So, your issue is the trade-off in medium armors: you improve the extra +1 AC but have disadvantage on stealth, or don't gain the extra +1 AC but stealth is not penalized. (In other words, AC 17 with stealth disadvantage or AC 16 without stealth disadvantage.)

The easiest fix for your high-DEX medium armor builds is to just allow medium armors Max DEX +3 bonus instead of +2. To me this is your best option if you break down how the armors improve:

Light: Dex ASI +2, Dex ASI +2 = AC +2
Medium: Armor improvement (chain shirt AC 13 to breastplate AC 14), Dex ASI +2 = AC +2
Heavy: Armor improvement (chainmail AC 16 to splint AC 17), armor improvement (splint AC 17 to plate AC 18) = AC +2

Now, medium improves once via armor upgrade (light never does this, heavy does it twice), and one DEX ASI (light does this twice, heavy never does this). Puts medium armors right where they belong.

The second obvious fix is to add one more medium armor with a base AC 15 but without disadvantage on stealth. After all, for the "stealth-conscious" medium armor wearer, the chain shirt to breastplate is the normal progression, and you could add a second armor upgrade, but then it is just like how heavy armor improves... *yawn*

Personally, I like the first fix. Hope that helps your problem with medium armors.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This is quite possibly one of the most ridiculous arguments we've had here on ENWorld... worrying about a single point of Armor Class at some higher level of the game with some strained set of circumstances all in an effort to do what? Change the armor table by adding in a new medium armor, just so the chart is somehow "balanced?"

You've got to be kidding me.

That single point of AC in this white-room simulation means absolutely nothing. Because when you actually sit at the table, none of your PCs are ever going to *be in* this very specific set of circumstance that makes this "addition to the Medium armor table" for balance reasons a requirement. Either someone will have the Defense fighting style and screw the balance up. Or someone will cast Shield of Faith and screw the balance up. Or the necessary classes needed to show off this "balance" won't actually appear at the table together and thus screw the balance up. Or someone won't use their ASI's "correctly" to set up this arugment in the first place and screw the balance up. Or someone will use a shield. Or someone will get magic armor. Or use Barkskin. Or cast Pass Without Trace and make the "disadvantage on Stealth checks" no longer an actual detriment to the group. You are never going to get everyone's classes, DEX mods, ASI selections, and the specific level requirements all lined up (without all the other AC modifying things) so that the players will actually reach that point and then sit there comparing their PCs and say "You know... something's not right here..."

This is the hallmark of why "white-room analysis" is in my opinion completely stupid. Because at no point does the best-case-scenario of getting all the moving parts lined up to show off how exactly balanced you were somehow able to make the game, ever actually occur. And even if in the most impossible of situations IT DOES somehow occur... no one sitting at the table and playing will actually give a hoot! Once the game starts, you have an AC of 14, I have an AC of 16, you have an AC of 19, my attack bonus is +5, yours are +4, that person's bonus is +5... everyone just has numbers on their sheets, everyone rolls dice that screw up the results anyway... and the way the d20s roll end up having so much more impact on the results of the game than ANY attempt at balancing the niggling +1 over here for this thing and the -1 over there for that thing.

The game doesn't care about that +1 "imbalance". Players don't care about that +1 "imbalance". Players won't even recognize that there *is* some "white-room analysis" imbalance when they are playing because it is impossible to comprehend how that 5% change from that extra +1 ever actually effects them. All they'll know is that when the d20 gets rolled... sometimes they get hit, and some times they don't. That's it. That's the end of it.

So if you want to add a new armor to the chart, then just do it already. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's ever going to actually matter.

 

[aco175]

What about monster AC? Most low-level monsters have an AC of 12-15 while the PCs tend to have 14-17 at 1st level (in my games). Even at mid levels it seems the humanoids do not have more than 17-18 while the PCs move to the 15-22 AC. This was done for some sort of balance and ties in with discussions on needing +1 weapons and some DMs not using magic armor to make the game work.

I guess the big question is if the PC armor class needs to be boosted to fill some sort of void or missing play element. Does other groups have PCs with ACs less than 15 other than maybe the mage. At what level does the thief not engage in fighting because he only has a 15 AC. Does this change in a featless game. It could be just my game and how I see this, so I'm interested in other opinions.

 

[TwoSix]

You are also mis-remembering something about character creation, though. Rolling for stats is presented as the default, with the array existing as an alternative to expedite matters. And if you start with Dex 20 (which is entirely possible, if not probable), then you can indeed start with light armor that's better than medium armor. So it isn't quite a never situation.

I'm comfortable saying that the Dex 20 1st level guy who wants to wear a breastplate but is forced to wear studded leather because it's 1 AC better is a niche not in need of protection.

 

[TwoSix]

Your second priority (even assuming it's second, and not third or fourth) is not really your priority.

I'll be sure to let me friends and job know that they're not really a priority because I put my family first.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I'll be sure to let me friends and job know that they're not really a priority because I put my family first.

Even if it's true, it's not necessarily polite to remind them of that. I'm sure they already know what you really care about, should you ever be placed in a trolley-dilemma-type situation.

 

[Mistwell]

I covered that earlier, Barbarian is one of those classes that can make medium armor work.

14 Dex, 14 con, and 16 strength (or primary stat).

Any class that can do that medium armor works fine. Mostly thats anything that's not a primary caster and wants to melee.

Casters can also make medium armor work but their primary stat is spellcastering one and the go ranged. One exception to that is the nature cleric who can key everything off wisdom.

Assuming default array. I had a good valor bard as I rolled high stats, if I roll low I'll go with rogue, fighter or moon druid depending on how low they are.

A light Cleric with a Dex 14 as their secondary stat to a maxed Wisdom can do fine with medium armor. Their AC will be higher than the Dex-based light armor wearer through level 8, and equal to that PC thereafter, without ever devoting a single resource to AC beyond that Dex 14 (except for some gold to buy the armor, if they don't find it during adventuring).