D&D 5E Lets Talk about Medium Armor

[Mistwell]

"Everyone" is missing that spending an ASI on Medium Armor mastery is (and I'm not going to use the "feats are optional" defense since I use feats) a feat that doesn't grant an ASI. The light or heavy armor character, using their 2 ASIs for Str, Dex, or their casting stat (for heavy clerics; the speed penalty isn't going to be too bad unless they're also a melee cleric) boosts their attack score. Yes, Medium Armor mastery with a Dex of 16 puts you into Heavy Armor AC range, but who is going to be pushing for a Dex 16 that isn't a dex attacker? A 14 Dex is already expensive for someone who isn't a Dex attacker;

Non-heavy armor users who want higher AC, higher Init, higher Dex saves, higher acrobatics check, higher stealth check, and the option to use a ranged weapon when the flying dragon is the foe?

it limits character choices to certain race/subraces or requires a character to go for a lower Con.

Even if you don't take the feat you have the SAME AC as the light armor guy, without having to devote any ASIs to get there while the light armor guy had to spend two ASIs to get there. So you an spend those two ASIs on feat for example, or your primary casting stat, or Constitution, etc..

Again, Light armor and Heavy armor get +2 AC over your early career just from doing the things you'd normally be doing (upping Dex or looting/purchasing gear)

Nononon. Not you're misrepresenting the critical facts. The light armor guy starts with two less AC. He HAS to spend those two ASIs on his Dex just to catch up to where the medium armor guy is at much earlier with zero ASIs. So all you're saying is if they were always going to spend ASIs on Dex that they will eventually have the same AC, but the medium armor guy will be at that higher AC for a much larger part of the game (minimum 8th level to get to the same AC the medium armor guy had as soon as he had 750 gold). My guess is the medium armor guy will be at that high AC by level 4 or so (and he will have had a higher AC than the light armor guy that whole time anyway, starting at level 1), while the light armor guy has to wait to a minimum of level 8.

If you're going to level 20, that 20% of your adventuring career that you had the lower AC than the medium guy. But worse, if you're playing a typical game which peeters out around levels 10-12, you're looking at 33% - 40% of your adventuring career with a lower AC for going light armor over medium armor.

Again, not seeing the problem with medium armor here. It's clearly a better choice than light armor, if your concern is AC.

The medium armor wearer can upgrade to Breastplate by then for the same AC 16, or Half Plate for AC 17. The Heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Splint for the same AC 17.

At 8th level, the Studded Leather wearer can get a final +2 Dex, for AC 17. The heavy armor wearer can upgrade to Plate for AC 18. The medium armor wearer doesn't have an armor upgrade, unless the breastplate wearer accepts the stealth penalty to switch to Half Plate (or spends an ASI on medium armor mastery, neglecting their attack stat).

Because they were already at AC 17 earlier with half-plate, well before the Studded Leather wearer can get to that same AC using all their ASIs.

 

[Mistwell]

Your valor bard who's boosting Charisma, doesn't actually care about armor. It's a secondary concern, at best. We know that they don't care about armor, because they're leaving AC on the table. If they actually cared about armor, then they'd wear light armor, and pump their Dexterity rather than their Charisma.

That's the problem with medium armor. It's the "I don't really care" of armor.

LOL. Saelorn, the medium armor guy will HAVE A HIGHER AC THAN THE LIGHT ARMOR GUY until level 8 at earliest. Thereafter, they have THE SAME AC. The light armor guy NEVER exceeds the AC of the medium armor guy.

A Bard just needs a 14 Dex to match the AC of the light armor wearer for the entire adventuring career. That's it, all they need is a Dex of 14, and they will always be at or higher than the AC of the light armor wearer. They are not leaving any AC on the table by doing that, and given how point buy or standard array works, a Dex of 14 is perfectly reasonable and doesn't take anything away from what they were likely doing all along. They can taek Charisma ASIs at level 4 and 8, while your light armor guy would have to take Dex ASIs for level 4 and 8 just to catch up to the medium armor guy.

I suspect the disconnect here is you are misremembering the armor AC numbers and think light armors start higher than they do, or else that medium armors max out at lower than they do. I think you should look above in this thread, or check again. Your math is off.

It's just a matter of perspective. It's not something you can argue as logically invalid.

Personally, I will say that if you don't care enough to optimize your AC for your character class, then from my perspective, you don't really care about AC. If you tell me that you care about AC, but that you care about your spellcasting more than you care about your AC, then that's saying to me that you don't really care about your AC. Your second priority (even assuming it's second, and not third or fourth) is not really your priority.

Ergo, medium armor is for people who don't care about their armor. If they'd actually made it a priority, then they would use light or heavy armor.

For someone claiming to be optimizing AC, you're doing a terrible job at it. Medium armor IS THE OPTIMIZED AC. Light Armor is SUB-OPTIMAL. It never exceeds medium armor, and takes more resources devoted to it to just get it to equal medium armor. I say again, I think you are misremembering something. Or else you think a Dex of 14 is somehow a huge devotion of resources to PC classes who have medium armor proficiency (all of whom would likely already be choosing a 14 Dex, as a secondary stat).

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I suspect the disconnect here is you are misremembering the armor AC numbers and think light armors start higher than they do, or else that medium armors max out at lower than they do. I think you should look above in this thread, or check again. Your math is off.

Well, that's unfortunate. Here I was, taking the OP at face value, with the assertion that medium armor ends up a point lower than light armor. That will teach me to trust ever trust anyone on the internet.

You're right, and I was mis-remembering the base AC of studded leather. Since studded leather and half-plate both end up with AC 17, you aren't leaving anything on the table by choosing the latter over the former. The benefit of medium armor is just that it gives you some flexibility to not pump Dex as much, which is purely a benefit.

You are also mis-remembering something about character creation, though. Rolling for stats is presented as the default, with the array existing as an alternative to expedite matters. And if you start with Dex 20 (which is entirely possible, if not probable), then you can indeed start with light armor that's better than medium armor. So it isn't quite a never situation.

 

[Xeviat]

Well, that's unfortunate. Here I was, taking the OP at face value, with the assertion that medium armor ends up a point lower than light armor. That will teach me to trust ever trust anyone on the internet.

You're right, and I was mis-remembering the base AC of studded leather. Since studded leather and half-plate both end up with AC 17, you aren't leaving anything on the table by choosing the latter over the former. The benefit of medium armor is just that it gives you some flexibility to not pump Dex as much, which is purely a benefit.

You are also mis-remembering something about character creation, though. Rolling for stats is presented as the default, with the array existing as an alternative to expedite matters. And if you start with Dex 20 (which is entirely possible, if not probable), then you can indeed start with light armor that's better than medium armor. So it isn't quite a never situation.

Half Plate is not comparable to Studded with Dex 20. Half plate has the stealth penalty, studded doesn't. Studded with Dex 18 is equal to Breastplate in AC and a lack of a stealth penalty. Half-Plate with Dex 14 has equal AC as splint.

My point is Light armor and the light Mediums, and Heavy armor and the heavy Mediums, are equal in AC/stealth penalties in the early levels. Medium then stops progressing. That's the point I'm making. Dex/Light armor characters get +2 to AC as part of their rather standard progression. Heavy armor characters get +2 AC as part of their rather standard progression. Medium only gets +1, unless you switch types and accept the stealth penalty.

A Dex 20 Ranger has no reason to use their medium armor proficiency. If we had a weird Dex 20 Archer fighter, they'd at least get +1 AC in return to their stealth penalty (and speed penalty if they don't have Str 15) by putting on Plate.

TLR
Medium armor with 14 Dex starts equal to Light with 16 Dex or Heavy, but it does not keep up.

 

[Zardnaar]

Main thing is your attack stat. 16 Dex plus MAM is cute but it's probably your highest score. Since you will eventually want a 20 regardless may as well use light armor and save a precious feat.

It's not useless but is only good on a few classes.

 

[gargoyleking]

Half Plate is not comparable to Studded with Dex 20. Half plate has the stealth penalty, studded doesn't. Studded with Dex 18 is equal to Breastplate in AC and a lack of a stealth penalty. Half-Plate with Dex 14 has equal AC as splint.

My point is Light armor and the light Mediums, and Heavy armor and the heavy Mediums, are equal in AC/stealth penalties in the early levels. Medium then stops progressing. That's the point I'm making. Dex/Light armor characters get +2 to AC as part of their rather standard progression. Heavy armor characters get +2 AC as part of their rather standard progression. Medium only gets +1, unless you switch types and accept the stealth penalty.

A Dex 20 Ranger has no reason to use their medium armor proficiency. If we had a weird Dex 20 Archer fighter, they'd at least get +1 AC in return to their stealth penalty (and speed penalty if they don't have Str 15) by putting on Plate.

TLR
Medium armor with 14 Dex starts equal to Light with 16 Dex or Heavy, but it does not keep up.

This is incorrect. Your dex 20 ranger could technically rock half-plate for 1 higher AC and still be just as functional at stealth. This of course at the cost of a feat.

 

[Blue]

And here's my rebuttal:

If you aren't willing to make any meaningful sacrifices or trade-offs in the name of AC, then you can't honestly claim that you care about AC. If you only improve it when there is no opportunity cost, then that is not an indication that you care about AC at all.

1. I cared enough about AC to pick up valor bard for the armor even though I wasn't focusing on weapon attacks. Subclass spent for AC = meaningful trade off. Care about AC, CONFIRMED BY YOUR DEFINITION.

2. I spent the ast majority of my share of our treasure up to that point (750gp for a 3rd level character) to get Half Plate, to increase my AC just by 2 points (AC 25 - studded leather and +3 DEX to AC 17 Half plate and + DEX). Those could have been healing potions, or all sorts of things. Meaningful sacrifice/trade off. Care about AC, CONFIRMED BY YOUR DEFINITION.

Okay, so for my valor bard who CARES ABOUT AC but is advancing his CHR first, the armor with the best final AC is medium.

This is just one example, we can go through it with clerics pretty easily. With an EB hexblade. And so forth.

Do you accept that each armor type can be best depending on the character, or are you going to change your definition?

 

[Xeviat]

This is incorrect. Your dex 20 ranger could technically rock half-plate for 1 higher AC and still be just as functional at stealth. This of course at the cost of a feat.

One feat for +1 AC over light armor is not a balanced use of a feat. Even dual Wielder gives more than that and everyone says that feat is bad.

 

[gargoyleking]

Main thing is your attack stat. 16 Dex plus MAM is cute but it's probably your highest score. Since you will eventually want a 20 regardless may as well use light armor and save a precious feat.

It's not useless but is only good on a few classes.

Normally true, if you're using point buy/Standard Array and/or not taking one of the racial options that buffs your primary stat and dex as well. It's quite easy to find a way to have at least 2 16's even then. But if you're rolling stats, you could have more than enough high rolls to make it worth it.

 

[gargoyleking]

I ran a dual wielder Barbarian and did very well actually. Also, I didn't say it was efficient, only that you can do it. You're arguing that Medium armor sucks and quite frankly, you've been mathematically proven wrong. But please, tell us again how you can't compare half-plate to studded leather.