D&D (2024) Warlock -- initial analyses

[Mistwell]

make mistakes, learn from it.
as a DM you can allow a player to change their choices if they do not like it after a level or two

It's called reading between lines.

An introduction to a new type of game is pretty critical. Mess up how you introduce players to the game and they often don't "change their choices" later, but instead walk away from the game.

Your reading behind the lines is your own bias, as a very longstanding existing player. That's not what they said or implied it's your inference.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm not sure "suffers" is the right word here. Radiant soul applies to radiant or fire spells and celestial warlock adds sacred flame automatically. Later it adds wall of fire. Truestrike is already and option and so is hellish rebuke. Pact of the tome can easily add more cantrips to which it might apply.

Really? Because I wouldn't call any of those worthwhile. Sacred flame (and indeed any other cantrip) is worthless in comparison to eldritch blast--you get +5 one single time ("you can add your Charisma modifier to one Radiant or Fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets."), instead of +5 on every single hit. And since EB is force damage, there's literally never a reason not to use it over sacred flame or any other cantrip, including fire bolt. Wall of fire is particularly bad, because it would literally only get you a single instance of +5 damage. If it were once per round, then persistent spells might have some value, but as it stands, the feature is nearly worthless in the vast majority of cases; by the time you get it (6th level), everything else you can do is simply better.

If the design goal was mainly a bonus to cantrip damage and sacred flame is always available it looks like a it's got a guaranteed attack cantrip to which it applies if a person wants for free up eldritch blast for something like minor illusion instead.

It's not so much that radiant soul suffers if it's meant to mainly be used with cantrips. It's that eldritch blast is so good because of how WotC treats the attacks that every other damage cantrip largely suffers in comparison for warlocks.

Okay. I don't base arguments on what I think the class should have been. I base it on what is actually there. And what's actually there is that this effect is, mostly, worthless even for celestial warlocks trying to use radiant damage. Getting--in effect--+5 damage one time per slot and one time per cantrip cast is pretty terrible. Even the Evoker Wizard's 6th level feature (which is also about dealing damage; your cantrips become "save for half" rather than "save and no damage") is almost always superior despite coming at the same level.

If it's meant to be used mainly with cantrips, it should be made with the signature, special Warlock cantrip in mind. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if the feature simply said, "When you cast eldritch blast, it deals radiant damage instead of force, and can be affected by this feature." It'd still be only +5 damage per casting, but at least it would play nice with the existing feature.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Situationally, radiant is better than force against some undead, and those effing mutant sharks in Call of the Netherdeap.

If I understand the new rules correctly, picking up Guiding Bolt via Magic Initiate: Cleric would be a good move for a Celestial warlock, and the Word of Radiance Cantrip from Xanathar's is still legal.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Really? Because I wouldn't call any of those worthwhile. Sacred flame (and indeed any other cantrip) is worthless in comparison to eldritch blast--you get +5 one single time ("you can add your Charisma modifier to one Radiant or Fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets."), instead of +5 on every single hit. And since EB is force damage, there's literally never a reason not to use it over sacred flame or any other cantrip, including fire bolt.

True Strike in the hands of a Celestial Warlock does almost as much damage as Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast in the level 6-10 range - and you've saved an Invocation for ... whatever. And there is one reason to use other cantrips over Fire Bolt - you're in melee and don't want Disadvantage.

 

[Mistwell]

True Strike in the hands of a Celestial Warlock does almost as much damage as Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast in the level 6-10 range - and you've saved an Invocation for ... whatever. And there is one reason to use other cantrips over Fire Bolt - you're in melee and don't want Disadvantage.

Is that the case (genuinely unsure)? What weapon do you have proficiency with in that situation where the extra d6 is almost keeping up with EB plus AB?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Is that the case (genuinely unsure)? What weapon do you have proficiency with in that situation where the extra d6 is almost keeping up with EB plus AB?

Light crossbow leaves you at d8+d6+2*Cha which leaves you an average of 3 points behind 2*(d10+Cha).

 

[Ashrym]

Really? Because I wouldn't call any of those worthwhile. Sacred flame (and indeed any other cantrip) is worthless in comparison to eldritch blast--you get +5 one single time ("you can add your Charisma modifier to one Radiant or Fire damage roll of that spell against one of its targets."), instead of +5 on every single hit. And since EB is force damage, there's literally never a reason not to use it over sacred flame or any other cantrip, including fire bolt. Wall of fire is particularly bad, because it would literally only get you a single instance of +5 damage. If it were once per round, then persistent spells might have some value, but as it stands, the feature is nearly worthless in the vast majority of cases; by the time you get it (6th level), everything else you can do is simply better.

Really. For 2 reasons.

The first reason is we're not looking at eldritch blast vs sacred flame. We're looking at eldritch blast vs sacred flame plus another cantrip because sacred flame is free and eldritch blast is not. So the evaluation becomes eldritch blast for more damage versus sacred flame plus something like minor illusion for enough damage and more versatility.

The second reason is eldritch blast is an attack roll while sacred flame is a saving throw. Higher AC opponents with poor saves aren't uncommon and this impacts the reliability behind using which cantrip. It also means I'm not required to use my concentration on hex for additional damage and more open to concentration on something else.

I don't disagree that the way WotC has presented EB in such a way that other cantrips seem pointless for damage, but when radiant soul comes on the difference is 2d10+2*CHA+hex and an option to split the attacks among 2 opponents vs 2d8+2*CHA plus a different utility cantrip and a different use for concentration such as bane or the new blade ward instead of hex that's a decent enough trade-off and something that isn't a concern (IMO) until later.

It's when EB adds that 3rd attack that it becomes more questionable compared to some cantrips, and that 4th attack tends to win out over everything else.

Okay. I don't base arguments on what I think the class should have been. I base it on what is actually there. And what's actually there is that this effect is, mostly, worthless even for celestial warlocks trying to use radiant damage. Getting--in effect--+5 damage one time per slot and one time per cantrip cast is pretty terrible. Even the Evoker Wizard's 6th level feature (which is also about dealing damage; your cantrips become "save for half" rather than "save and no damage") is almost always superior despite coming at the same level.

The evoker version only applies to cantrips. The celestial warlock also applies to hellish rebuke and wall of fire, and possibly more additions through feats or invocations. If I use that concentration for wall of fire I'm going to get the radiant soul damage on both the wall of fire and subsequent radiant flame spells.

If it's meant to be used mainly with cantrips, it should be made with the signature, special Warlock cantrip in mind. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if the feature simply said, "When you cast eldritch blast, it deals radiant damage instead of force, and can be affected by this feature." It'd still be only +5 damage per casting, but at least it would play nice with the existing feature.

Why? When I look at a free damage cantrip I look at with what I might replace eldritch blast, not "well this should just be eldritch blast with another name". It's not about investing in the same features. It's about some diversity in the options at that point.

When I'm looking at the celestial warlock it's not the damage that sacred flame can do with agonizing blast and radiant soul compared to eldritch blast and subsequent investment. It's the fact that the cantrip is a free damage cantrip and even if it's worse that eldritch blast that begs the question is it still enough damage to be worth other investments.

If a person doesn't think so then they'll probably skip celestial warlock. If a person does think so this is for them. If a person wants those benefits and also the damage benefits then my first thought is we can't always eat our cake and have it too. ;-)

My perspective, anyway.

 

[ECMO3]

Can the new Warlock still swap out an Invocation on level up, or are you stuck with it forever once you take it?

 

[Ashrym]

Can the new Warlock still swap out an Invocation on level up, or are you stuck with it forever once you take it?

Yes, they can still swap on leveling up.

 

[ECMO3]

double post