D&D (2024) Warlock -- initial analyses

[Horwath]

Yeah. For some people it is, for some not. And I am playing with people who are happy to have less decision points at level 1. You can take my word for it or not. Whatever.

you can always make simpler choice in character making.
Take Tough feat instead of Magic initiate. Focus you choices on "passive" benefits not "active".

everyone likes to play a dumb barbarian sometimes. you just have one button. Rage. That is it. Roll initative-rage-attack. Works great.

I even homebrewed spell-less paladin so I do not have to hassle with spells.
he got 2 speeds only. Lay on hands and Smite. One of the best characters ever.

you can have fun with simple characters, but give options to people that want complex ones right from the start.

We too. And we had other players.

Yes. But after a few session they are level 3 anyway.

I meant, their 1st play was a 5th level full caster.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This is an interesting build path to explore because it makes you ask, "Do I even need Blade Pact?" Blade Pact gets you weapon proficiency, weapon attacks with Cha, alternative damage types, and access to further invocations. But how many of those apply to a Celestial Warlock using True Strike with a bow?

Weapon proficiency is tricky. Blade Pact says it can conjure a melee weapon or bond a magic weapon. The "melee" qualifier is not repeated for the second clause, so it's unclear if it's assumed to still apply or if you can bond an enchanted longbow. However, Warlocks do get shortbow and light crossbow proficiency, so if we say you stick with those it isn't required.

As for the rest, well, most of them are redundant. True Strike gets you attacks with Cha and Radiant weapon damage, and if you're going this route you're not planning to take the other invocations for extra attacks. So that frees up a lot of invocations for other things, like maybe the Chain Pact route for a more combat oriented familiar.

Let's sketch out some numbers. At 8th level, a traditional Eldritch Blast build or Bladelock using a versatile weapon are making two attacks for a total of 2d10+10 damage, or about 21 damage if both hit. A Celestial Warlock using True Strike with a light crossbow is doing 1d8+1d6+15, or about 23 damage. Really close, though the damage curve is a bit different between one attack and two.

To me the big thing about the True Strike path is that you can even afford to save the Agonizing Blast invocation. And sure 1d6+1d8+10 or about 18 damage isn't great, it's not awful either and a long way ahead of the full casters and their cantrips. And some of those invocations are awesome.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

you can always make simpler choice in character making.
Take Tough feat instead of Magic initiate. Focus you choices on "passive" benefits not "active".

everyone likes to play a dumb barbarian sometimes. you just have one button. Rage. That is it. Roll initative-rage-attack. Works great.

I even homebrewed spell-less paladin so I do not have to hassle with spells.
he got 2 speeds only. Lay on hands and Smite. One of the best characters ever.

you can have fun with simple characters, but give options to people that want complex ones right from the start.

I meant, their 1st play was a 5th level full caster.

Yeah. Great for them. There are other players though. And not overwhelming people is a good choice. That is not assuming they are dumb.

 

[Kurotowa]

On a topic besides damage, I was mocking up character ideas and noticed there's a modest amount of synergy between Pact of the Tome and the Ritual Caster feat. Combining their pools of 1st level ritual spells widens a Warlock's spell selection pretty significant, and the Ritual Caster pseudo spell slot works with any ritual spell not just the ones from the feat.

It's not a core character build trait, but if you're planning on using Tome Pact then Ritual Caster should be on the short list of 4th level feats you consider.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't see widening the spell selection when you can just use the pact library ticket to get a tome with two different rituals.

 

[Kurotowa]

I don't see widening the spell selection when you can just use the pact library ticket to get a tome with two different rituals.

Tome Pact can give you any 1st level Ritual in the game ...if you have time to take a Short Rest. It doesn't give you more than two ritual spells available right now, at the same time. Which is the difference between white room theorizing about how you'd counter a specific problem, and actual play running into unexpected situations with a time pressure and having to use the tools you're got immediately ready.

 

[Ashrym]

Certainly, the Celestial Warlock suffers from not having good radiant damage spells.

I'm not sure "suffers" is the right word here. Radiant soul applies to radiant or fire spells and celestial warlock adds sacred flame automatically. Later it adds wall of fire. Truestrike is already and option and so is hellish rebuke. Pact of the tome can easily add more cantrips to which it might apply.

If the design goal was mainly a bonus to cantrip damage and sacred flame is always available it looks like a it's got a guaranteed attack cantrip to which it applies if a person wants for free up eldritch blast for something like minor illusion instead.

It's not so much that radiant soul suffers if it's meant to mainly be used with cantrips. It's that eldritch blast is so good because of how WotC treats the attacks that every other damage cantrip largely suffers in comparison for warlocks.

 

[Marandahir]

Unfortunately, my DM is old school and believes that levels 1 and 2 are "where the fun is". He refuses to start campaigns at higher levels ... but at the same time, he also doesn't seem interested in working the acquisition of a subclass into the story. So if I want to play, say, an eldritch knight, then I'm just an ordinary fighter for two levels and then suddenly gain magical powers out of nowhere. There's no room in the campaign for my character's learning of those magic powers. It just happens off-screen.

Take Magic Initiate (Wizard) for your Origin feat then. Or even a Knowledge-based feat/background; you're still a Fighter but you're studying wizardry on the side for those first two levels. You might have insights in Arcane Lore or even be able to cast a Wizard cantrip while otherwise being a non-magical Fighter, but then you make big breakthroughs at 3rd Level and manage to figure out how to cast larger Level 1 spells and do Eldritch Knight things.

The background + feat system was literally built to fill in these sorts of gaps.

 

[Mistwell]

why do people like the warlock?

They kind of don't?

I mean, in terms of objective data on popularity Warlock doesn't rank very high. I think they were consistently in the bottom half of popularity?

I am playing one right now and at least at lower levels (4th now) they just seem to lack options and are fairly weak. The dependence on short rests is debilitating at times.

 

[Mistwell]

After playing Pathfinder 2, I'm reminded how much I hate this about 5e. I've come to accept it over the years, but playing other systems really makes a lot of sore spots stand out.

Having every class get a subclass at level 1 opens all of the design space. Want a Str based monk? Works at level one without nerfing your build. Cha based noble fighter concept? You can dump Str at level 1. Unarmed martial that isn't a monk? Works right out of the gate with a subclass. Too bad they don't trust the player base to be able to make decisions.


That's the developers' take. They've said they wanted to push back subclasses because they didn't want people to have to make too many decisions at level 1. They literally don't trust us to figure it out.

Claiming it's because new players "can't comprehend" it is his take, not the developers. That's the words he used, and it's right to hold him accountable for what he said. Designer's take is that too many choices early in the game is a turn-off to new players based on their research. Not based on trust, but based on their testing of the issue.

Both of you are very experienced players, very distant from how you were thinking in the first moments of you being introduced to a TTRPG for the first time. I know when I introduced my daughter and her friend to the game (both smart kids) they really didn't want too many decision points until they got their feet wet playing the game.