WotC Frylock's Gaming & Geekery Challenges WotC's Copyright Claims

Prakriti

Hi, I'm a Mindflayer, but don't let that worry you
If there's no creativity in monster stat blocks, then why does the stat block for, say, a Unicorn differ between game systems and even between D&D editions? Wouldn't a Unicorn in 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E, 5E, 13th Age, and Pathfinder 1E and 2E essentially be the same in terms of power level, attacks, and special abilities?
 

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pemerton

Legend
The worst case scenario (and hopefully not even on the horizon of thinking yet) is that due to someone acting like this, WotC acts aggressively to end a LOT of the freedom they have allowed in respect and regards to the OGL and SRD.
I'm furious about this. It's not just that the argument is quite weak but it's the risk it poses to normal fans who like to post things online and take advantage of WotC's rather generous fan site policy.

Now he's drawn a line in the sand, WotC is going to have to respond. And they're not known for using smart lawyers - remember the clowns who pulled the PDFs years ago because they claimed it fuelled piracy? Hopefully the success of 5E means they have smarter lawyers now.
I think these concerns are misplaced.

The OGL is a license that is premised on a certain view about WotC's IP rights. The fact that someone disagrees with that view and might litigate over it doesn't give any reason for WotC to change its strategy if it wins (whether through litigation or pre-litigation tactics).

And if Frylock turns out to be right (unlilkely, given what @S'mon has posted upthread) then you don't need a licence from WotC!

Likewise for fan sites. I can't see that this gives any reason to WotC to change its approach.
 

pemerton

Legend
If there's no creativity in monster stat blocks, then why does the stat block for, say, a Unicorn differ between game systems and even between D&D editions? Wouldn't a Unicorn in 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E, 5E, 13th Age, and Pathfinder 1E and 2E essentially be the same in terms of power level, attacks, and special abilities?
Well, according to the no copyright in rules idea, I could invent a chess variant in which a bishop has a different "stat block" - that is, a different set of game rules - from conventional chess. But I wouldn't enjoy copyright in my new bishop stat block qua rules.

As I understand what @S'mon has posted, part of his point is that the formatted stat block - ie the visual/aesthetic design, not the rules per se - is clearly a copyrighted work. So in the case of my chess variant it would be my rulebook - including its visual and typographical design - that would be the copyrighted work.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Well, according to the no copyright in rules idea, I could invent a chess variant in which a bishop has a different "stat block" - that is, a different set of game rules - from conventional chess. But I wouldn't enjoy copyright in my new bishop stat block qua rules.

As I understand what @S'mon has posted, part of his point is that the formatted stat block - ie the visual/aesthetic design, not the rules per se - is clearly a copyrighted work. So in the case of my chess variant it would be my rulebook - including its visual and typographical design - that would be the copyrighted work.

Also the extended fluff descriptions of actions that would not pass muster with plagiarism detecting software: that's pretty clearly creative work that he has copied rather blatantly.
 

GreyLord

Legend
I think these concerns are misplaced.

The OGL is a license that is premised on a certain view about WotC's IP rights. The fact that someone disagrees with that view and might litigate over it doesn't give any reason for WotC to change its strategy if it wins (whether through litigation or pre-litigation tactics).

And if Frylock turns out to be right (unlilkely, given what @S'mon has posted upthread) then you don't need a licence from WotC!

Likewise for fan sites. I can't see that this gives any reason to WotC to change its approach.

The difference between rules and what Frylock did is pretty clear. In my understanding of US law (vs Euro law).

For example, if I wanted to say you roll a D20 and if it is over a specific defensive number, you score a hit on something...that's a rule.

Or, if I say that a 25/5 +5 = 10, that's math and not under plagiarism.

HOWEVER...

If I say...

The name is Greylord.

Greylord has an Armor class of 15

Greylord has a bonus to hit of 12

Greylord has 17 Health

And list an abbreviation of Greylord - Armor: 15 - Bonus to Hit: 12 - Health - 17

That's a specific pattern. It's not math, it's specifically stated in a specific way. If someone then copies it exactly or very nearly like this so they say...

Greylord has an Armor class of 15

Greylord has a bonus to hit of 12

Greylord has 17 Health

Greylord - Armor: 15 - Bonus to Hit: 12 - Health - 17

That text that they quoted, starts getting very close to what could be plagiarism. It would be debatable.. The math and rules may not be, but once you start copying the words and numbers in the exact format or pattern they are in, that starts down the path of plagiarism

Now if the above is under the OGL specifically, then no problem as long as the OGL is included in the text somewhere.

IF IT IS SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED...OR...if the formatting specifically includes the specific pattern found in the BOOKS but excluded from the OGL and does not use an original format or that of the OGL and spefically uses a formatting from WOTC...

It still may be foggy if it's just that short...but once he slapped his OWN copyright on it...that starts to be pretty clear cut. He would have had to delineate between what is HIS and what is NOT...but if he included the WotC formats and patterns in his own work and simply said it's copyright to him...well....not a GOOD thing from my viewpoint/opinion.

what is plagiarism

Unfortunately, this question, while understandable, isn’t very helpful when trying to understand plagiarism. Plagiarism is about citation, not duplication, and it’s possible to use passages of text verbatim without plagiarism as long as it is quoted and cited correctly.

As found at

How similar is too similar? - Plagiarism.org

One of the big problems I'm seeing here is the double slap where he did not cite the reference directly AND he then put a copyright which made it appear that he copyrighted WotC's ideas and materials as his own.
 


D

Deleted member 7015506

Guest
This is a very interesting topic. But since I am no native english speaker, several questions turned up for me while reading this whole affair (and please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes). Hopefully I state my opinions in a way, so no misunderstandings arise.

1) As I understood, the whole argument revolves around the question if the stat blocks presented by Fyrlock are an infringement of copyright due to the fact, that

a) they were not published under the OGL (or proper 5E license), which would perhaps make
the whole affair obsolete, if the published stat blocks would not violate terms stated by said
licence(s)

b) Fyrlock did put a own copyright sign/tag for his stat blocks on the published stat blocks, which
implies in my personal view, that he made them up from scratch (at least, that is how I
understand copyright) and thereby infringing/violating copyright laws, since the original stat
blocks were the basis for his own and not his own generic work


2) If I got things right, then game mechanics and rules in general cannot be copyrighted in any way, no matter what they are, except for content that is considered Product Identity. So integrating monsters like the Mind Flayer, Beholder, Slaad and Kuo-Toa for example is an infringement of copyright, since they are Product Identity of the publishing company (in this case WotC). So my questions are:

a) Why can something be considered/treated as PI, which falls under the copyright rules and
underlying mechanics on the other side can not be copyrighted. As I personally see it, both are
creative (= unique?) works, that are not less subject for copyright protection than a fiction novel
for example.

b) Wouldn´t the original ruleset already be considered unique (= creative), since perhaps not
their different parts but the whole set/combination of them make for a unique product falling
under the copyright law? Personally spoken, if somebody talks about AC, HD and Saving
Throws, I immediately think of D&D. Therefore that is a kind of PI (at least in my opinion).

3) Is the visual presentation of game mechanics/content copyrightable or not? If the answer is yes (which I think is here the case, since the creativity behind this presentation process is unique), then a similar (albeit modified version) presentation might lead to confusion about the origin of the product in question. And this might lead unwary people to the assumption, that the product in question published by Frylock is 100% genuine and not the work of WotC in any way. In how far those modifications to the original stat block is sufficient to make it unique (= no infringement of copyright laws) would be interesting to see.

4) What is the difference between copyright and product identity? The mentioned monsters are “considered” (quote from the wikipedia entry of the Mind Flayer) PI by WotC. So as I understand it, PI is what makes a product unique/recognizable on the market. On the other hand PI can´t be copyrighted? And how do you legitimate PI (by a kind of patent act/bureaucracy, official procedure etc.). Very confusing for me (Let me make that clear at this point: No I don´t have any intention on going to war with WotC over that or question the validity of this aspect/statement or whatever you want to call it). Could the official stat block be considered PI and therefore a violation of PI be assumed? And as a side note: Game mechanics and rules can´t be copyrighted, but is a stat block a mechanic/rule or something different? Isn´t it rather a collection of creative imaginary values that may be interpreted individually (= house rules) and therefore are unique via the compilation of several more or less independent aspects into a single block?

5) If a license is published/made public it can be revoked, right? Why is the OGL considered unrevokable? As I understand it, the OGL is only viable in connection with the SRD, which results in the OSR/retro clone products being possible to be published (as long as you don´t violate mentioned PI). So if somebody violates a license in such an open and (IMHO) aggressive way (as is perhaps this case here), couldn´t that lead to the mentioned revoking of the OGL as mentioned by others, since WotC might see a possible threat to their products as a whole? Or is this unrevokable aspect based within the text of the OGL itself by not stating a kind of expiration date or procedure for revoking it in case the license publisher wishes to do so?

BTW for me the statement, that the OGL is nonsense/non-valid (no quotation here), is a very drastic statement.

6) If Frylock wouldn´t have placed his own copyright tag under the product in question and added an approbate license (OGL or 5E, whatever would be approbate here), then as I understand it, the whole affair would not have happened. So my stupid question is here: Why pose something as your own and make a big wind about it when notified about it, when there are possibilities to avoid that and still publish your work? To prove that everything in the gaming industry can be copied for free except for graphics and exact wording perhaps?

If I misinterpreted or misunderstood anything, please correct me.
 

D

Deleted member 7015506

Guest
Oh and before I forget: I consider my nickname here to be protected by TM, copyright, Product Identity and any imaginable/applicable law and regulation that is out there ;)
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
This is a very interesting topic. But since I am no native english speaker, several questions turned up for me while reading this whole affair (and please forgive any spelling/grammar mistakes). Hopefully I state my opinions in a way, so no misunderstandings arise.

1) As I understood, the whole argument revolves around the question if the stat blocks presented by Fyrlock are an infringement of copyright due to the fact, that

a) they were not published under the OGL (or proper 5E license), which would perhaps make
the whole affair obsolete, if the published stat blocks would not violate terms stated by said
licence(s)

b) Fyrlock did put a own copyright sign/tag for his stat blocks on the published stat blocks, which
implies in my personal view, that he made them up from scratch (at least, that is how I
understand copyright) and thereby infringing/violating copyright laws, since the original stat
blocks were the basis for his own and not his own generic work


2) If I got things right, then game mechanics and rules in general cannot be copyrighted in any way, no matter what they are, except for content that is considered Product Identity. So integrating monsters like the Mind Flayer, Beholder, Slaad and Kuo-Toa for example is an infringement of copyright, since they are Product Identity of the publishing company (in this case WotC). So my questions are:

a) Why can something be considered/treated as PI, which falls under the copyright rules and
underlying mechanics on the other side can not be copyrighted. As I personally see it, both are
creative (= unique?) works, that are not less subject for copyright protection than a fiction novel
for example.

b) Wouldn´t the original ruleset already be considered unique (= creative), since perhaps not
their different parts but the whole set/combination of them make for a unique product falling
under the copyright law? Personally spoken, if somebody talks about AC, HD and Saving
Throws, I immediately think of D&D. Therefore that is a kind of PI (at least in my opinion).

3) Is the visual presentation of game mechanics/content copyrightable or not? If the answer is yes (which I think is here the case, since the creativity behind this presentation process is unique), then a similar (albeit modified version) presentation might lead to confusion about the origin of the product in question. And this might lead unwary people to the assumption, that the product in question published by Frylock is 100% genuine and not the work of WotC in any way. In how far those modifications to the original stat block is sufficient to make it unique (= no infringement of copyright laws) would be interesting to see.

4) What is the difference between copyright and product identity? The mentioned monsters are “considered” (quote from the wikipedia entry of the Mind Flayer) PI by WotC. So as I understand it, PI is what makes a product unique/recognizable on the market. On the other hand PI can´t be copyrighted? And how do you legitimate PI (by a kind of patent act/bureaucracy, official procedure etc.). Very confusing for me (Let me make that clear at this point: No I don´t have any intention on going to war with WotC over that or question the validity of this aspect/statement or whatever you want to call it). Could the official stat block be considered PI and therefore a violation of PI be assumed? And as a side note: Game mechanics and rules can´t be copyrighted, but is a stat block a mechanic/rule or something different? Isn´t it rather a collection of creative imaginary values that may be interpreted individually (= house rules) and therefore are unique via the compilation of several more or less independent aspects into a single block?

5) If a license is published/made public it can be revoked, right? Why is the OGL considered unrevokable? As I understand it, the OGL is only viable in connection with the SRD, which results in the OSR/retro clone products being possible to be published (as long as you don´t violate mentioned PI). So if somebody violates a license in such an open and (IMHO) aggressive way (as is perhaps this case here), couldn´t that lead to the mentioned revoking of the OGL as mentioned by others, since WotC might see a possible threat to their products as a whole? Or is this unrevokable aspect based within the text of the OGL itself by not stating a kind of expiration date or procedure for revoking it in case the license publisher wishes to do so?

BTW for me the statement, that the OGL is nonsense/non-valid (no quotation here), is a very drastic statement.

6) If Frylock wouldn´t have placed his own copyright tag under the product in question and added an approbate license (OGL or 5E, whatever would be approbate here), then as I understand it, the whole affair would not have happened. So my stupid question is here: Why pose something as your own and make a big wind about it when notified about it, when there are possibilities to avoid that and still publish your work? To prove that everything in the gaming industry can be copied for free except for graphics and exact wording perhaps?

If I misinterpreted or misunderstood anything, please correct me.

‘Product Identity’ is a construct of the OGL. It only exists in so far as you agree to the incense and it’s terms. As the OGL is an agreement between two parties, PI is whatever the agreement says it is.

This issue isn’t about the OGL or PI, as Frylock is not using the OGL.

Intellectual Property (IP) on the other hand, may be what you’re thinking about?
 


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