Pathfinder 2E Are you moving from 5E to PF2?

[CapnZapp]

Sales. DMs are the smallest group of the fan base (though we buy the most) and we just don't buy enough of the optional/extra material to make their sales / efficiency goals. And clearly it is working as the edition is selling very well. SO you may not understand it and my think it is misguided, but it is working for them.

On a personal note, I've bought five adventures for 5e and will probably buy the next one (Descent into Avernus). In the previous 30 years of buying D&D products I only purchased 3 adventure books. What has been different with 5e? They keep putting the damn monsters I want into the adventure books!

Yes it's pretty clear they aggressively pursue the goal of "every book must appeal to every customer".

The days of specialized sourcebooks are, to sum it up, over.

(To newer gamers: us D&D fans used to see very specialized books on the shelves that catered only to Rangers, or Dwarves, or only to DM's wishing to run a campaign based in a highly specific region of the Forgotten Realms, or a book on desert conditions, or, or...

You'd be amazed at the hyper-specificity of some of these titles. That they didn't sell well is no surprise, how could they.

My point here is: wanting that back is still not wrong even if it clear by now it will likely never happen)

 

[dave2008]

I can very easily see it, and I honestly think you can too.

In the text you quoted I stated that I get people feel that way. So yes, I can see it because I know it is a thing. And I know everyone is different (thankfully). It just isn't anything within my personal realm of experience. As I said, 5 years in and we still have 75% of the PHB to go through.

 

[Haffrung]

And yet it is the most successful edition to date, and all of their books continue to sell: no 5E book has gone out of print so far, at five years and counting.

But that doesn't mean it's because WotC's publishing strategy has been brilliant. IMHO, the reasons for the recent D&D crazy have little to do with any WotC marketing, and is down to sea changes in social media, demographics, and nerd culture. DMing is needlessly onerous, and the difficulty in finding competent and willing DMs is still a bottleneck in participation in the hobby.

 

[Haffrung]

Sales. DMs are the smallest group of the fan base (though we buy the most) and we just don't buy enough of the optional/extra material to make their sales / efficiency goals. And clearly it is working as the edition is selling very well. SO you may not understand it and my think it is misguided, but it is working for them.

Sales of books aren't the only measure of success of a game. If players who buy those books can't find a DM, you're growing the readership of a game but not the participation. The most effective way for WotC to ensure the upsurge in interest in D&D is just a fad that fades when people get bored with watching streaming is to neglect the support of DMs.

DM's are not just another buyer. They're the crux of the whole enterprise of tabletop roleplaying. But maybe WotC are fine with fans of Critical Role buying PHBs to thumb through at their leisure, and call it success.

 

[dave2008]

Sales of books aren't the only measure of success of a game. If players who buy those books can't find a DM, you're growing the readership of a game but not the participation. The most effective way for WotC to ensure the upsurge in interest in D&D is just a fad that fades when people get bored with watching streaming is to neglect the support of DMs.

DM's are not just another buyer. They're the crux of the whole enterprise of tabletop roleplaying. But maybe WotC are fine with fans of Critical Role buying PHBs to thumb through at their leisure, and call it success.

But not all DMs want or need more "support." I am a DM, pretty much exclusively for the past 30 years. I am a serious homebrewer (and isn't that approx. 50% of the market.) I don't need more setting books, or adventures, or maps, or magic items. I don't even really need more monsters (but I can't help buying bestiaries). I really don't want are need anything beyond the core three books. I don't feel I am being under supported. I'm guessing there a lot of people like me (well at least in this regard) out there.

On the other hand, I already feel overwhelmed by the PF2e release schedule. There are just 3 books I want: Core Rulebook, Bestiary, & GM's Gamemastery book. After that I am out.

 

[CapnZapp]

But that doesn't mean it's because WotC's publishing strategy has been brilliant. IMHO, the reasons for the recent D&D crazy have little to do with any WotC marketing, and is down to sea changes in social media, demographics, and nerd culture. DMing is needlessly onerous, and the difficulty in finding competent and willing DMs is still a bottleneck in participation in the hobby.

I choose to believe the fact 5E is the first edition of the game that's easy on the Dungeon Master (discounting really old editions that technically featured even less crunch) has something to do with its success...

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

I choose to believe the fact 5E is the first edition of the game that's easy on the Dungeon Master (discounting really old editions that technically featured even less crunch) has something to do with its success...

Plus, less rules bloat and more streamlined, simpler rules means it's easy to bring new players into the game. I'm experiencing this first hand DMing 5e.

 

[Parmandur]

This is because their arguments are a smokescreen necessitated by their lack of staff. The answer to why there was so little content is that there were only a few writers on staff, a drastic downsizing from previous editions.

Hasbro wanted an edition on the cheap. Their interest lies in keeping the D&D brand floating until they can make products that really take in the money: mainly toys and movies. There likely was a meeting where they seriously considered mothballing the brand after the 4E "experience".

The irony is how successful 5E became.

There is no evidence that the strategy has anything to do with a skeleton crew, particularly as the WotC D&D team has continued to grow for five years. They have said repeatedly it is because most people switch off and stop buying when too many books come out, with 3-4 a year being the sweet spot for generating interest (I myself bought two D&D books before 5E came out, and have now bought everything except the Acquisitions, Inc. book). That this strategy has proven extremely effective is not an ironic coincidence, bit a successful plan

Sorry but this reads as "history has proven you wrong so you were wrong".

But people aren't wrong when it comes what they want, and implying it makes you appear smug and condescending.

It's better to simply say we agree with the sentiment but that it likely will never happen (that WotC returns to the publishing strategy of old) since they have zero incentive to do so.

We could point out that a deluge of books didn't work out for AD&D, 3E or 4E.

Still doesn't make it wrong to wish for the steady release of content you became used to as a D&D gamer these, what, three decades straight (pre-2015).

I was not implying that Haffung was wrong to want something different, but history has indeed demonstrated that WotC current approach is not "mistaken."

But that doesn't mean it's because WotC's publishing strategy has been brilliant. IMHO, the reasons for the recent D&D crazy have little to do with any WotC marketing, and is down to sea changes in social media, demographics, and nerd culture. DMing is needlessly onerous, and the difficulty in finding competent and willing DMs is still a bottleneck in participation in the hobby.

There were other windows of nerd culture opportunity that didn't work out the same way for D&D. The current ruleset, and the current publishing strategy, are a definite part of the mix right now. WotC has marketing research about how many books people are comfortable with in a given year, and are making informed decisions based on data and psychology. And, it is working, and hence is not "mistaken."

"Mistaken" is best applied to the strategy that leads to mass layoffs or bankruptcy, which is what previous publishing strategies have led to.

 

[Haffrung]

I choose to believe the fact 5E is the first edition of the game that's easy on the Dungeon Master (discounting really old editions that technically featured even less crunch) has something to do with its success...

Yes, the relative simplicity (compared to 3E, 4E, and Pathfinder, certainly contributed to the success of 5E.

 

[Parmandur]

I for one try to stay clear of third-party material. My one significant exception: the DM Guild Adepts thing for Tomb of Annihilation. That I looked into.

But only because the timing gave it a stamp of approval, of sorts.

I really don't have the time or energy to dredge thru the dmsg.

A more useful argument is to just grab the bull by its horns:

Flooding the market with content is a way of doing things that probably won't ever come back. 5E has conclusively proven it is not fundamental to D&D succeeding.

Even Paizo seems to go slower this time (even if the release schedule looks positively flooded compared to WotC).

So you or I can lament the slow release of crunch however much we want, it will still only amount to pining for the fjords.

I'd recommend checking out Kobold Press's work, it might float your boat. Given how much work they have done for WotC, and that one of the new WotC Designers (Dan Dillon) is a Kobold Press veteran, they're as official as anything can be, and have that more seat of the pants TSR vibe from the Old Guard like Wolfgang Baur.