Pathfinder 2E Are you moving from 5E to PF2?

[Haffrung]

Plus, less rules bloat and more streamlined, simpler rules means it's easy to bring new players into the game. I'm experiencing this first hand DMing 5e.

True. But DM support content =/= rules bloat. Content a publisher can provide to DMs to help them run their own games without adding rules bloat:

Lairs
Standalone adventures
Tactical encounters
NPCs
Organizations (wizard's guilds, priestly orders, thieves' guilds, etc.)
Groups of rival adventurers
Merchant caravans and other groups encountered travelling
Ruins
Temples
Castles and forts
Adventure hooks and summaries
Etc.

Currently, WotC offers two approaches for DMs:

1) Level 1-20 mega-campaign presented in 256 page books of wall-to-wall text. All requiring extensive work, summaries, and aids to whip into a shape that is usable at the table.

2) Make up everything in your world from scratch. The campaign setting, factions, NPCs, geography, cities, lairs, temples, ruins, encounters, enemies, and adventures.

The first approach is made much more difficult than it needs to be due to the old-fashioned wall-of-text format. The second approach assumes DMs who like to run homebrew campaigns have the desire and the resources to make it all up from scratch.

 

[FrogReaver]

True. But DM support content =/= rules bloat. Content a publisher can provide to DMs to help them run their own games without adding rules bloat:

Lairs
Standalone adventures
Tactical encounters
NPCs
Organizations (wizard's guilds, priestly orders, thieves' guilds, etc.)
Groups of rival adventurers
Merchant caravans and other groups encountered travelling
Ruins
Temples
Castles and forts
Adventure hooks and summaries
Etc.

Currently, WotC offers two approaches for DMs:

1) Level 1-20 mega-campaign presented in 256 page books of wall-to-wall text. All requiring extensive work, summaries, and aids to whip into a shape that is usable at the table.

2) Make up everything in your world from scratch. The campaign setting, factions, NPCs, geography, cities, lairs, temples, ruins, encounters, enemies, and adventures.

The first approach is made much more difficult than it needs to be due to the old-fashioned wall-of-text format. The second approach assumes DMs who like to run homebrew campaigns have the desire and the resources to make it all up from scratch.

3) Buy WOTC material and use it for inspiration, tweak it, steal it etc.

 

[Parmandur]

True. But DM support content =/= rules bloat. Content a publisher can provide to DMs to help them run their own games without adding rules bloat:

Lairs
Standalone adventures
Tactical encounters
NPCs
Organizations (wizard's guilds, priestly orders, thieves' guilds, etc.)
Groups of rival adventurers
Merchant caravans and other groups encountered travelling
Ruins
Temples
Castles and forts
Adventure hooks and summaries
Etc.

Currently, WotC offers two approaches for DMs:

1) Level 1-20 mega-campaign presented in 256 page books of wall-to-wall text. All requiring extensive work, summaries, and aids to whip into a shape that is usable at the table.

2) Make up everything in your world from scratch. The campaign setting, factions, NPCs, geography, cities, lairs, temples, ruins, encounters, enemies, and adventures.

The first approach is made much more difficult than it needs to be due to the old-fashioned wall-of-text format. The second approach assumes DMs who like to run homebrew campaigns have the desire and the resources to make it all up from scratch.

The large adventure books actually support both paths: they are location Gazeeters with small modular adventure elements that can be reused in other ways.

 

[Wiseblood]

After reading some of these responses I think that if Pathfinder 2e is easy to run I may give it a go. I would be impressed if the GM section had something new and/or useful. In my experience GM guides are about as useful as the screen.

 

[CapnZapp]

Plus, less rules bloat and more streamlined, simpler rules means it's easy to bring new players into the game. I'm experiencing this first hand DMing 5e.

I very specifically focused on the DM side of the screen.

The players want more crunch. As a player I would probably too.

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

I very specifically focused on the DM side of the screen.

The players want more crunch. As a player I would probably too.

Well, I'm also focusing on the DM side. In my experience with late era AD&D 2e with player splat crunch; 3.0 and 3.5 I found that added player crunch feeds into the complexity of running the game. Sessions would grind along as players were constantly working out all the bonuses and permutations of the extra rules provided by feats; added rules options etc. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, keeping a fair balance of player choice vs. ease of DMing is preferable.

In my current 5E Ravenloft campaign I allow subclass options and spells from Xanathar's Guide plus some converted Ravenloft specific options from the DMs Guild. And that's it. I have not had a single player complain there were not enough options for them. My group are a mix of 3.5 veterans and people completely new to the game, I have managed to get the newbies up and running in probably about 40 minutes. And the group are currently 8th level.

This is my actual experience and I've been running 5e since early 2015, pre-Critical Role. 5e, for me, does walk that fine line between too little and too much player crunch. And it's not as though more stuff isn't coming - we have more options in the upcoming Eberron campaign guide; existing stuff in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica; Psionic rules in the pipeline and Mike Mearls has already hinted that a Xanathar's 2 could materialise in the next couple of years.

I think honestly that people should be careful when they wish for masses of player options, rules for every occasion etc. They might get what they asked for but probably not what they expected. I'm astonished Paizo have taken the route they have; have they learned nothing from 3.5? After 12 years?!

As for DM support? I guess I'm fortunate that I'm O.K. using older edition stuff from the DMs Guild plus monster conversions (also from the DMs Guild). Anything else I either create myself or stripmine from the 5e adventures. It helps that the 5e adventure books were specifically designed so that bits could be lifted out of them and used however you like. Any claims that 5e does not have enough support is frankly nonsense. I blame Millenial attitudes quite honestly.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, I'm also focusing on the DM side. In my experience with late era AD&D 2e with player splat crunch; 3.0 and 3.5 I found that added player crunch feeds into the complexity of running the game. Sessions would grind along as players were constantly working out all the bonuses and permutations of the extra rules provided by feats; added rules options etc. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, keeping a fair balance of player choice vs. ease of DMing is preferable.

In my current 5E Ravenloft campaign I allow subclass options and spells from Xanathar's Guide plus some converted Ravenloft specific options from the DMs Guild. And that's it. I have not had a single player complain there were not enough options for them. My group are a mix of 3.5 veterans and people completely new to the game, I have managed to get the newbies up and running in probably about 40 minutes. And the group are currently 8th level.

This is my actual experience and I've been running 5e since early 2015, pre-Critical Role. 5e, for me, does walk that fine line between too little and too much player crunch. And it's not as though more stuff isn't coming - we have more options in the upcoming Eberron campaign guide; existing stuff in Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica; Psionic rules in the pipeline and Mike Mearls has already hinted that a Xanathar's 2 could materialise in the next couple of years.

I think honestly that people should be careful when they wish for masses of player options, rules for every occasion etc. They might get what they asked for but probably not what they expected. I'm astonished Paizo have taken the route they have; have they learned nothing from 3.5? After 12 years?!

As for DM support? I guess I'm fortunate that I'm O.K. using older edition stuff from the DMs Guild plus monster conversions (also from the DMs Guild). Anything else I either create myself or stripmine from the 5e adventures. It helps that the 5e adventure books were specifically designed so that bits could be lifted out of them and used however you like. Any claims that 5e does not have enough support is frankly nonsense. I blame Millenial attitudes quite honestly.

Also, with time and care being taken, and input from players constantly being solicited, quality has increased dramatically.

 

[Acolyte of Zothique]

Also, with time and care being taken, and input from players constantly being solicited, quality has increased dramatically.

Quite. Other than some early sub par options such as the Beast master Ranger and Way of Elements Monk - neither of which are actually that bad - I think the design quality has been admirable and has only been improved over the years. Look at the amount of play testing that has gone into the new Artificer class (final version due in the Eberron campaign setting). Phenomenal.

I contrast this with the glut of material from, specifically, AD&D2E and 3.5. Material was released as if from a fire hose and much of it was hit and miss due to the quantity and speed it was produced. Much like the release schedule for PF2E. How can Paizo maintain quality of design when they plan to release so much stuff so quickly? History and experience tells me they can't; I anticipate an endless stream of errata for the foreseeable future.

 

[dave2008]

2. Official PDFs exist for PF2 products - this makes it far easier to run for me.

I'm an old guy (or at least I feel old) and I generally agree with you. I really like PDFs. However, I've been checking out D&D beyond recently and damn, it really is far superior to a PDF. I may just have to break out of this stone I'm set in and move into the 21st century!

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I'm an old guy and I generally agree with. I really like PDFs. However, I've been checking out D&D beyond recently and damn, it really is far superior to a PDF. I may just have to break out of this stone I'm set in and move into the 21st century!

Never!