D&D 5E Consequences of Failure

Oofta

Legend
I see it as a "challenge" not a problem, and it's due to a "high bar", not a straight jacket.

But your mileage may vary.



Um, yes? That's exactly what I was trying to say. Maybe I phrased it poorly.



Here I disagree, unless there was some sort of opportunity cost of to trying to remember. E.g., during combat: "Ok, you can think back and try to remember all the examples of that you've seen, but you're going to have to focus and won't be able to take any other actions for the round. In fact, you're free to repeat that each round until you succeed, if you like."



I get that. And what I'm saying is that I think the game is much more interesting when the game state changes regardless of whether there is success or failure, so the question is how to accomplish that in some of the less-obvious cases.

I think you're dismissing opportunity cost. If I do remember the history of the McGuffin, I can bypass and expensive, potentially dangerous side mission. The campaign thread won't end because I didn't remember anything, the cost is that now I have to go to The Narrows and hunt down Jimmy the Nose. Jimmy doesn't like me too much after our last encounter and bribing him is going to be expensive.

The cost of failure, IMHO, does not need to be immediate.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Mmm...I get annoyed when posters write some variation on, "And you can only participate in this conversation if you agree with me."

I'm just not going to get sucked into debates about the merits, and (gently?) deflect.
Fair enough. The way I see it, the point of a “+ thread” is not to say “you can only participate if you agree with me,” but rather, “I would like to have a discussion assuming X as a baseline, not arguing whether or not X is a good baseline.” But if you’d rather leave all avenues open, that’s cool too.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I think you're dismissing opportunity cost. If I do remember the history of the McGuffin, I can bypass and expensive, potentially dangerous side mission. The campaign thread won't end because I didn't remember anything, the cost is that now I have to go to The Narrows and hunt down Jimmy the Nose. Jimmy doesn't like me too much after our last encounter and bribing him is going to be expensive.

The cost of failure, IMHO, does not need to be immediate.

It's not really a cost in that case, though. You're not in a worse situation for having tried to remember.

And just to insert the boiler plate: it's not wrong to play without a cost. The goal of this thread was to discuss interesting ways to include such costs, for those who want to.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Great! Thank you for your advice.



Oh, that's interesting. Do you think it's unreasonable for somebody to overestimate their own stealthiness? Does stealth mean absolute silence, or just "silent enough", but you underestimate what "enough" is? Is it possible to be doing great, and thinking "I got this", and then make a mistake at a critical moment?



Oh, yes. When I used to play the other way I had no problem resolving all sorts of situations. Don't know what to do? Pick a skill and let the dice answer it for you. We rolled lots of dice, and forged ahead.

The thing is, I got tired of that.

Your mileage may vary.

Regarding the unreasonable bit, the player knows what they rolled and gets a narration appropriate to it. They can use the narration and the "roll" in their decisions as a sort of "degree of confidence".

Since they dont "know" the DC specifically, they can obviously overestimate their own stealthiness, think "that twig probably wasnt loud enough to attract attention" and press on. Or they can wait, listen, see if they detect any changes. Or they can back out, change directions, in case someone heard it.

Its all up to them.

Edit to be clear if it's not- no stealth is not absolute silence. That requires a spell and in most cases is very noticeable.


I am glad to see that you used to have a "got tired of thst" issue with the way you used to play and then switched to something that apparently gives you different troubles that I guess you prefer.

Sounds like a positive change for you so that is great. We dont really run games the way you say you used to, so we dont have that problem and we dont need to take on these new problems you have found.

So, sounds like good all around, mostly.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I actually hadn't seen (or noticed) you describe that specific approach. But I like it. Sure, it MIGHT get abused by a player who always wants to use their best stat, but as long as they describe an approach that uses that stat it's ok. I mean, if it's really outlandish I can rule auto-failure. But really the points you make about "good faith" and "not being a hardass" cover pretty much everything.

I do this too, and I like it a lot. It makes my job easier, only having to decide which of the six abilities I feel is most appropriate, and leaving it to the player to determine if one of their Proficiencies is applicable. If I ask for a Perception check to find the secret door hidden among the masonry, a player who isn’t trained in Perception will probably just roll straight Wisdom. But if I just ask for a Wisdom check, and it’s established ahead of time that it is up to the player to suggest applicable Proficiencies when an ability check is called for, they might say, “I’m trained in Mason’s Tools, would that help?” to which I would be happy to say yes.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
It's reasonable behavior for a player to engage largely in tasks that the character has the best chance in which to succeed (best ability score, proficiency or expertise in relevant skill proficiency, plus any additional features that may modify the roll). The key thing is they need to establish that BEFORE the call for the roll. No saying, "Oh, yeah, I was using my thieves' tools on that..." after you've called for the Dex check. That should be part of them describing what they want to do which precedes the call for the check.
I like to keep “costs and consequences” in mind when I involve dice.

To me, rolling for something without a risk attached is like gambling for nothing.

That said “consequences” often does mean “something bad happens,” so I have to think in terms of “costs” too.

Opportunity costs: the loss of time, positioning, advantage.
Actual costs: spell components, ammo, hit points, hit dice, spell slots.

Things like that. What are the stakes involved in sneaking past the dragon? That seems like “Don’t wake it,” or “bypass it unnoticed.” Failure here doesn’t have to be the negation of the goal. I mean it doesn’t have to be “the dragon wakes and notices you.” It might be an opportunity cost. “You make your way past, but it takes absolutely forever. Before long you’re tiptoeing on an unstable mound of coins. Any false step spells disaster, but after a good 30 minutes, you make it through.”

Or maybe the opportunity cost is - you find a good path, sneak by, but unfortunately your path leads away from the dragon’s hoard and you can’t so much as sniff a gold coin without risking detection.”

So I guess my advice, when it comes to areas where it seems like failure means “nothing happens” is to look for possible lost opportunities and set them as the stakes.
 

Oofta

Legend
It's not really a cost in that case, though. You're not in a worse situation for having tried to remember.

And just to insert the boiler plate: it's not wrong to play without a cost. The goal of this thread was to discuss interesting ways to include such costs, for those who want to.

Then I go back to the fact that you're being overly-restrictive in your approach for no reason. I'd have to hunt through the PHB to get the exact wording but it explains there that sometimes a failed check just means you make no progress.

Not getting information that could be useful can be it's own penalty. Getting noticed even though you were trying to be sneaky is bad. Not being able to tell if someone is lying is not helpful.

In combat if I swing my sword and miss, there is no penalty other than that I didn't do damage. Same here.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
and then switched to something that apparently gives you different troubles that I guess you prefer.

I would distinguish between boredom with the old way, and challenge of consistently using a different (and I think better) way.

You and Oofta both made an argument like, which I find puzzling. If this were, say, a forum on mountain biking, and I said, "I got bored riding on bike paths, and I'm trying to get into downhilling, but I'm having trouble with the big drops..." I would be surprised by the response, "Then why don't you just stick with bike paths?"

I like challenges, and getting better at hard things.
 

Celebrim

Legend
But I think you're confusing my interest in discussing this topic with some kind of cry for help.

I don't know about a "cry for help" but this thread certainly seems like asking for help to me. There is nothing wrong with that. Many of my posts to Enworld have been asking for help as well.

I'd also add that I have no idea what kind of DM you are; the degree to which I take you seriously will depend on the value of what you have to offer.

I would assume nothing else. However, what I will tell you is that you asked for help, and immediately qualified it by the sort of help you expected to receive. That is, you are asking, "How can I ensure that there are always meaningful consequences of failure to a dice roll?", and there is implicitly to that question the addendum, "...for every fictional situation that might occur." And you are noting that for many fictional situations, finding meaningful consequences is hard and strains your imagination.

The answer you want to get from me is some sort of guidelines for providing meaningful consequences to propositions in the fiction that transcend the fictional state. But what I'm telling you is that you have it backwards. Instead of worrying about the process of resolving the fictional state, instead creating meaningful situations in the fiction. There is no one size fits all answer.

I almost agree with you on this one. There's nothing preventing the players from hiding AND getting their weapons ready (that's what "surprise" is, right?)

Yes, there is! And I can explain it in the terms of your "goal and approach" methodology.

Surprise doesn't involve hiding. It involves the guard not knowing you were there before you acted. So, while there is nothing that prevents the player from hiding and getting their weapons ready, if they phrase this in terms of a goal, then absolutely they cannot both hide and get off a successful ambush. They either can do one or the other.

Suppose they give the goal and approach, "We hide and get out our bows. As soon as whatever is coming down the corridor arrives, we shoot it." Now, they have given a goal and an approach. This is what they want to happen - "shoot the surprised bugbear" - and how they plan to accomplish it is quickly hide to facilitate that plan. But now, things can go wrong. They could fail the stealth check. Depending on how badly they failed it, trying to hide might have been a worse plan than just standing still, so that the Bugbears hears them moving around and so is not surprised. But if the succeed, perhaps they gain additional advantages compared to have standing still. Whatever happens, they are now shooting at whatever comes around the corner, bugbear or not. (Generously, you might allow some sort of test to avoid doing that if it isn't a bugbear).

But now, lets suppose they give a different goal and approach, "We hide and get out our bows." - same approach, but "If we are seen, then we will fire our arrows." Different goal! Different consequences. Now, the issue on the stealth check is whether or not they get seen. If they are, they can fire their bows, but the bugbear knows now that they are there so he's not surprised. The bugbear may also pretend not to see them, forcing a new opposed check. And the good thing is that if it is the princess that comes around the corner, well they aren't blindly firing at her.

All of this naturally comes out of the fiction and the different goals and approaches involved.

So I think a better way of presenting this is by giving the party two options:
1) They can prepare for a regular ambush and potentially get the drop on the monster.
2) They can really try to hide and avoid combat completely, but now if they fail they should be "worse off" than if they had tried #1.

And here we get to the problem of you try to shove your preferred approach on the scenario. You are playing the PC's for the players as soon as you give the party two options. Because there are not only many more than two options available here so that two options is limiting party agency, but honestly I think presenting them options is not actually listening to their goals and approaches. There are times sure when you need to prompt the party to clarify what it is actually doing, especially when the player proposes a mechanic instead of a proposition such as - "I roll stealth." But too much prompting and too much giving options and you might as well be playing a 'Which Way' book.

So maybe one way to resolve it is...and this is what @Charlaquin was saying...is to let them hide, let the monster approach, and then at the critical moment make them choose which way they are going: do they try to spring their ambush, or wait to see if the monster notices them?

Yes, but ideally you are getting this goal BEFORE the critical moment. If they wait to the critical moment to decide what the goal is, you reasonably should interpret this as chaos as each player decides how to act on their own, potentially thwarting other players plans. And of course any table talk is at that point in character, which is rather harmful to your stealth.

Totally agree about trap design, and I avoid putting un-telegraphed traps into my own adventures. Sometimes it takes new players a while to get used to that, and they still want to "check for traps" on every door and container for a while.

Untraining players of bad habits is a long process. On the other hand, don't discourage players from interacting with the fiction. Just discourage them from primarily interacting with the fiction in uninteractive ways like, "I make an Investigation check." Yes, but what do you actually do?

The real value in what you are calling "goal and approach" - well one of the real values - is that it engages the players with the fiction. But don't let the good results of engaging with the fiction turn you heavy handed in how you run the game. Rather, write engaging fiction that naturally lends itself to interesting and fun scenarios.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Then I go back to the fact that you're being overly-restrictive in your approach for no reason. I'd have to hunt through the PHB to get the exact wording but it explains there that sometimes a failed check just means you make no progress.

Not getting information that could be useful can be it's own penalty. Getting noticed even though you were trying to be sneaky is bad. Not being able to tell if someone is lying is not helpful.

In combat if I swing my sword and miss, there is no penalty other than that I didn't do damage. Same here.
Standard phb under ability checks defines failed check redult as no progress or some progress with setback.

It's the basic definition.
 

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