D&D General Greyhawk setting material

[Hussar]

I think I wind up with two main issues with the whole "reset" thing.

1. It ignores/rejects all the really great stuff that has come out later on down the line. Sure, there's some bad stuff. "Gargoyles" anyone? But, there's been some fantastic stuff too. All the Paizo Greyhawk stuff - Savage Tides, Age of Worms, and a slew of Greyhawk centric or at least adjacent stuff. Artists like Anna Meyer who have done unbelievable amounts of work on the GH map project. All those years of Living Greyhawk material that has been produced. There's very much a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

2. It places the original material on a pedestal from which it becomes impossible to criticize. Much of the early material was written at a time when the social political landscape was very different. Inclusivity and whatnot weren't exactly major parts of the writing back then. And, frankly, some of it might be due for a bit of creative editing to bring it in line with current sensibilities. But, if the original material gets "carved in stone" by being the only canon in the setting that is actually canon, then it gets much, much harder to alter. IOW, canon is never a sufficient justification on its own for resisting changes.

 

[Demetrios1453]

I'm still not seen a reason why a 5e version of Greyhawk couldn't support PC tieflings and dragonborn beyond "they weren't there when Gary designed the setting." (so was a lot of other things in D&D) and "They are already in FR, Greyhawk should be different." (So are elves and nobody is calling for their removal). Neither seems to say that the races are directly incompatible, as much as they are an appeal to tradition. I'm looking for for established lore that would directly thwart each races existence, or at least use as a PC race. Is there any?

I simply can't comprehend how OG Greyhawk fans can't accept tieflings in the setting. Given the canonical fiend-humanoid interbreeding in the lands of Iuz and in the Great Kingdom from even the earliest sources, it's logical that not only would they exist, but they would likely be relatively numerous. Or does Greyhawk have "humanoids-of-fiendish-decent-that-are-totally-not-tieflings-even-though-that's-exactly-what-tieflings-by-definition-are" for them?

 

[Parmandur]

I think I wind up with two main issues with the whole "reset" thing.

1. It ignores/rejects all the really great stuff that has come out later on down the line. Sure, there's some bad stuff. "Gargoyles" anyone? But, there's been some fantastic stuff too. All the Paizo Greyhawk stuff - Savage Tides, Age of Worms, and a slew of Greyhawk centric or at least adjacent stuff. Artists like Anna Meyer who have done unbelievable amounts of work on the GH map project. All those years of Living Greyhawk material that has been produced. There's very much a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

2. It places the original material on a pedestal from which it becomes impossible to criticize. Much of the early material was written at a time when the social political landscape was very different. Inclusivity and whatnot weren't exactly major parts of the writing back then. And, frankly, some of it might be due for a bit of creative editing to bring it in line with current sensibilities. But, if the original material gets "carved in stone" by being the only canon in the setting that is actually canon, then it gets much, much harder to alter. IOW, canon is never a sufficient justification on its own for resisting changes.

Well, not to harp on it, but threading that needle in your point number one is just what GoS did: Mearls was in the Keoland regiin for Living Greyhawk, and Incorporated that material into the sandbox section of this new book as part of the reboot.

 

[Coroc]

I simply can't comprehend how OG Greyhawk fans can't accept tieflings in the setting. Given the canonical fiend-humanoid interbreeding in the lands of Iuz and in the Great Kingdom from even the earliest sources, it's logical that not only would they exist, but they would likely be relatively numerous. Or does Greyhawk have "humanoids-of-fiendish-decent-that-are-totally-not-tieflings-even-though-that's-exactly-what-tieflings-by-definition-are" for them?

Well Tieflings are not that big problem if:

You mainly make them quite humanlike with a few quirks which means no tails or massive horns or glowing red eyes, but small alterations only visible on second glance, e.g. cat like pupils, very small protruding horns easily disguisable by a helmet or a hat, maybe a cloven hoof for a foot also concealable by pretending to have a limp.

For PCs or NPCs working with the PCs make some reason, why they would oppose Iuz which is the biggest force of evil in the campaign. This gets harder if you intend to have Tanar'ri (demonic) origin for your tiefling, then they normally would be natural allies of Iuz . If you have them originate from yugoloth or devils things getting easier. Unless, of course you plan an all evil campaign, then tieflings make perfect sense.

Dragonborn otoh is a whole different issue. Most civilized cities would eventually let halforcs in, if they are "humanlike". With orcs, no. Ok there is some inn in greyhawk which got an ogre or hillgiant innkeeper if I can remember correctly, but that was done for the uh oh effect back then, and not to be inclusive to a mob race. It was totally intended and designed to be a singularity, an oddity.
A singiularity is no base for a PC race. There are good dragons (maybe bad dragons too) shapeshifted to humans acting in the human cities, but even though they are recognized as a (major) force of good, they would use their human form when inside a city, to not stir up things.
Having some sort of Lizardman (related to dragons, especially chromatic dragons) running around in humanocentric cities on oerth is not possible without contradicting the tone of everything published so far.

Greyhawk even had (neutral aligned!) dwarves being on the opposite side of the party, they got intra human prejustice e.g. scarlet brotherhood so lizardlike humanoids, be they peaceful as they might are not a good addition w/o shoehorning things.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

A singiularity is no base for a PC race.

Yes it is. All PCs are singular in one way or another, just as are all protagonists of fantasy novels. The vast majority of the population are not adventurers.

 

[Coroc]

Yes it is. All PCs are singular in one way or another, just as are all protagonists of fantasy novels. The vast majority of the population are not adventurers.

Well, that does not make the PCs singular, the original greyhawk material is full of NPCs with class levels.
Basically everybody in the population with whom the PC regularly interact (guild leaders, city watch, mayor, circle of eight etc. etc.) apart from some shopkeeper or innkeeper or such has some class(es) in Greyhawk.

A singularity is the Ogre / Hillgiant innkeeper who is unique, it does not make ogre a viable race in the whole setting just because there is one NPC who is an ogre. Similar the mage academy in Greyhawk detailed in the blue box has a Drow who got some job there. Also there are beholder guardians in it.
Again these are NPCs / mobs who never roam the streets, they would be attacked on sight by the city watch and cause a major stir up with the general populace.
They got another innkeeper who is a vampire in disguise. She is a quest target, not a possible PC race.

 

[Zardnaar]

I simply can't comprehend how OG Greyhawk fans can't accept tieflings in the setting. Given the canonical fiend-humanoid interbreeding in the lands of Iuz and in the Great Kingdom from even the earliest sources, it's logical that not only would they exist, but they would likely be relatively numerous. Or does Greyhawk have "humanoids-of-fiendish-decent-that-are-totally-not-tieflings-even-though-that's-exactly-what-tieflings-by-definition-are" for them?

Existing yes, being able to be played as a normal race maybe. Similar concept to the Drow.

A Dragonborn running around should expect a reception to a Minotaur, Lizardman, Orc etc.

There's a sticky from Gygax here at ENworld. In one of the latter posts from Gygax kind of indicates what type of reception a monstrous race would get.

FR is more cosmopolitan than GH and Eberron more than FR.

Early Drizzt novels are more or less what a Drow, Tiefling or Dragonborn should expect on GH.

Or imagine a UFO landing in times square and having Dragonborn or Tieflings March out.

If I ran GH and a player was particularly persuasive or got their via planar travel or spelljamming and I oked a monster type race I would tell them up front it's a bad idea and to expect a bad reception.

It's a setting where half orcs and dwarves don't play nice together (1E phb).

Anything more monstrous than a half orc.....

 

[Paul Farquhar]

On the whole, I find adventures get a bad reception wherever they go, irrespective of race. They are the lone gunslingers, who exist outside of the law and society, feared, but occasionally tolerated when their services are needed.

 

[Coroc]

On the whole, I find adventures get a bad reception wherever they go, irrespective of race. They are the lone gunslingers, who exist outside of the law and society, feared, but occasionally tolerated when their services are needed.

While this is not a strict rule/ruling it is a very good DMing style highly enjoyable, because it challenges the players also during "routine" actions and times.

 

[Hussar]

Well Tieflings are not that big problem if:

You mainly make them quite humanlike with a few quirks which means no tails or massive horns or glowing red eyes, but small alterations only visible on second glance, e.g. cat like pupils, very small protruding horns easily disguisable by a helmet or a hat, maybe a cloven hoof for a foot also concealable by pretending to have a limp.

For PCs or NPCs working with the PCs make some reason, why they would oppose Iuz which is the biggest force of evil in the campaign. This gets harder if you intend to have Tanar'ri (demonic) origin for your tiefling, then they normally would be natural allies of Iuz . If you have them originate from yugoloth or devils things getting easier. Unless, of course you plan an all evil campaign, then tieflings make perfect sense.

Dragonborn otoh is a whole different issue. Most civilized cities would eventually let halforcs in, if they are "humanlike". With orcs, no. Ok there is some inn in greyhawk which got an ogre or hillgiant innkeeper if I can remember correctly, but that was done for the uh oh effect back then, and not to be inclusive to a mob race. It was totally intended and designed to be a singularity, an oddity.
A singiularity is no base for a PC race. There are good dragons (maybe bad dragons too) shapeshifted to humans acting in the human cities, but even though they are recognized as a (major) force of good, they would use their human form when inside a city, to not stir up things.
Having some sort of Lizardman (related to dragons, especially chromatic dragons) running around in humanocentric cities on oerth is not possible without contradicting the tone of everything published so far.

Greyhawk even had (neutral aligned!) dwarves being on the opposite side of the party, they got intra human prejustice e.g. scarlet brotherhood so lizardlike humanoids, be they peaceful as they might are not a good addition w/o shoehorning things.

According to your interpretation of the setting, you mean.

After all, humans working with non-humans happens ALL THE TIME in the setting. The Scarlet Brotherhood does work with humanoids frequently, albeit in a master/slave capacity usually. The settings of Sasserine and Cauldron are both very cosmopolitan, with non-humans and humans running around together pretty commonly. GoS has humans working side by side with hobgoblins in the first adventure, as well as the smugglers being perfectly willing to sell weapons to lizard folk, who are written up as not particularly hostile to the humans that live, what half a days walk away. A day maybe? Oh, and let's not forget that the whole point of the next two modules is for the humans of Saltmarsh to team up with said lizard folk, as well as a handful of other races, in order to repel the sahuagin threat.

I'm really not sure where you are getting this xenophobic thing from the setting. Virtually none of the setting materials actually reflect this. Most of them, including the art, depict strongly mixed, cosmopolitan populations that probably wouldn't bet much of an eye at something like a dragonborn or a tiefling. Heck, THIS is the Tiefling that the back country folks of Saltmarsh deal with routinely and don't have too many problems with:

Not really going to pass for human in any kind of light.