D&D General Greyhawk setting material

Ravnica sold alright on Amazon?

That misses half the phb races.
Yup, and then added in half a dozen or so new races to replace them. Can we have that then? You get to veto Dragonborn, but, I get to add, say, Genasi, Thri-Kreen and that weird race from 4e that had runes floating over their heads? Oh, and half-giants of course. Need those.

And, again, Ravnica is a different animal from GH. It's a mostly new setting ported over from Magic. Greyhawk has decades of established material and has ALWAYS been inclusive. Heck, it used to be that stuff appeared in Greyhawk first and then spread out to general D&D.
 

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Yup, and then added in half a dozen or so new races to replace them. Can we have that then? You get to veto Dragonborn, but, I get to add, say, Genasi, Thri-Kreen and that weird race from 4e that had runes floating over their heads? Oh, and half-giants of course. Need those.

And, again, Ravnica is a different animal from GH. It's a mostly new setting ported over from Magic. Greyhawk has decades of established material and has ALWAYS been inclusive. Heck, it used to be that stuff appeared in Greyhawk first and then spread out to general D&D.

I would support them printing Nerath and putting the 4E races in that.

I suspect it wouldn't sell that well so forcing 4Eisms into other settings seems to be a back door way of getting them back in.

If nee races are added it would be better to open up player options of races that already exist.

If you're so big in options can you comprehend one of those options is less us more? Eberrons in the works that was kitchen sink by design, FR is anything goes as well. Nerath as well.

If they remade Nerath I would also advocate for setting it earlier in the 4E run.

Shoehorned races did not go over well with 4E Realms and Darksun. Including Dragonborn would argueably reduce sales.

New players won't care one way or another, old players well and there's ready other options for anything goes.

It honestly beats me why you would want every setting to have phb stuff.

Let me guess you want Dragonborn in Darksun as well. If they ever do Mystara what about that?
 

I still haven't heard a good argument for why Greyhawk needs every PHB race though, beyond "because I don't want to invent a reason of my own," which I find lacking strength.

The Player's Handbook is considered the baseline of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Every setting, whenever its printed for a specific edition, has to account for what's in the Player's Handbook. It creates a minimum set of expectations, and even if the option isn't going to be allowed (IE gnomes in Dark Sun) it needs to be addressed (gnomes are extinct in Dark Sun). When a setting is updated to a new edition, it MUST address whats in that edition's Player's Handbook or it fails as a supplement for that edition.

I'm still waiting on a good reason why they don't need every PHB race, beyond "I only want what existed in 1983 in there", which I found lacking strength.
 


The Player's Handbook is considered the baseline of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Every setting, whenever its printed for a specific edition, has to account for what's in the Player's Handbook. It creates a minimum set of expectations, and even if the option isn't going to be allowed (IE gnomes in Dark Sun) it needs to be addressed (gnomes are extinct in Dark Sun). When a setting is updated to a new edition, it MUST address whats in that edition's Player's Handbook or it fails as a supplement for that edition.

I'm still waiting on a good reason why they don't need every PHB race, beyond "I only want what existed in 1983 in there", which I found lacking strength.

Greyhawks more humanocentric, any other option was a demi human or a half breed.

There's a colonal pladoah thread up top and he was talking about what kind of reception a half ogre iirc could expect.

If your running around as demon spawn or dragon spawn it's a monstrous race.

Remember on Greyhawk the demi human races didn't always get along (see 1E phb racial antipathy table).

And that's with races that look mostly human. If individual DMs want to allow monstrous races that's on them, shouldn't be the default though.

If you really wanted a Dragonborn I might allow it but being locked up and executed or sold into slavery would be your likely fate. A Drow would have it comparatively easy.
 

GH and FR are both generic, in that they aren't loaded with a pile of unique conditions, like Dark Sun or Ravenloft, and are generally all-inclusive. Sure, they each have some unique stuff, but you can set most any generic adventure there.
But... 'including dragonborn' seems to be a set in stone dealbreaker for you, so there doesn't seem to be much point in arguing about it. I find it all pretty shruggable myself, and I'm a long time GH fan...

I've actually said this before a couple times earlier in the thread, I actually don't really mind if Dragonborn are added as long as their origin is from a far-off land and are treated with a mixture of fascination/horror in the Flaenass. Something like that doesn't really change the underlying status-quo of Greyhawk much and adds new lore to an area that wouldn't normally get it.

It's much the same approach that GoS took to adding a Tiefling (there is one NPC from the cambion-ruled nation there, but the book goes out of its way to say that tieflings/dragonborn PCs would be treated as utterly alien). It's one I largely agree with.

Umm, you realize when Greyhawk came out, it DID include every single option in the game right? Plus more actually considering that there are a bajillion elf variants.

The notion that what makes Greyhawk Greyhawk is somehow exclusion is pretty bizarre.

When Greyhawk came out, it was essentially the only and first D&D setting (unless your counting Blackmoor). The game of D&D moved on from then, adding way more material, a lot of material that some would argue make no sense in the context Greyhawk establishes.

And look, I agree with you that Greyhawk has a metric ton of player options, not just for Elves but also for humans, adding things like the gold-skinned Baklunish and the albino violet-eyed Suel.

The Player's Handbook is considered the baseline of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Every setting, whenever its printed for a specific edition, has to account for what's in the Player's Handbook. It creates a minimum set of expectations, and even if the option isn't going to be allowed (IE gnomes in Dark Sun) it needs to be addressed (gnomes are extinct in Dark Sun). When a setting is updated to a new edition, it MUST address whats in that edition's Player's Handbook or it fails as a supplement for that edition.

I'm still waiting on a good reason why they don't need every PHB race, beyond "I only want what existed in 1983 in there", which I found lacking strength.

Ravnica doesn't address all the races in the PHB. But it's still a good book, and a successful one in sales. So no, this isn't necessary.

Look (and this is to everybody), I'm not actually against any changes to Greyhawk, I'm not even for a full reset (I like Age of Worms for example). I think change can be good, it can create more material that is useful and interesting.

What I am not in favor for is change for the sake of change. 4e Dark Sun took two of its unique-looking races, Dray and Half-Giants, and made them Dragonborn and Goliath under different names. That weakened what Dark Sun was, and I don't want the same to happen to Greyhawk.

The changes GoS made by adding a Tiefling were positive; none of the old material was contradicted, the setting's tone remained consistent, and a race was introduced that made sense within the context presented. The same can be done with other races like Dragonborn.

EDIT: I think I've made my case here, not sure I have anything more to add.
 

I'll reiterate that I believe Greyhawk is only made truly generic when it has the same racial and class outlook as Forgotten Realms, so I think you're creating a bit of a feedback-loop there.

I find this line of logic utterly dissonant. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms have more in common with each other than any other setting in D&D. Greyhawk was the default setting of D&D in 3rd edition for Pelor's sake; it doesn't get any more generic than that!

Oerth and Faerun share the same belief on the multiverse (IE: the Great Wheel as commonly defined). They share every racial pantheon (dwarves, elves, orcs, gnomes, halflings, drow, dragons, etc). They are the only two settings that define humanity by ethnicity with racial languages. The both have famous archmages that like to meddle (just one does it for Good and one for balance). They share 99% of the same Monster Manuals. Greyhawk has no unique races, classes, monsters, or technology that isn't found in Faerun. Compared of Krynn, Eberron, or Athas, Oerth and Faerun are kissing cousins.

And you really think banning two PHB races is going to make people go "A-HA! They ARE different!"?

You want to make Oerth different; play up the Sword & Sorcery/Shades of Gray alignment notion more. Lean in on its mercenaries, its cunning rogues and scheming mages, its fallen knights and broken kingdoms. Its good people trying to fight back against a tide of darkness, and the various grifters and sellswords out to make a coin navigating between light and darkness. Embrace its pulpy-gonzo elements. Its a setting where an archmage demigod has Boot Hill-era firearms and a spaceship crashed in the mountains. If you can't make that different than Forgotten Realms, then go home.

Because believe me, there are thousands of new players who just started playing and for many this is their first edition. And guess what? None of them are going to be excited that Greyhawk is different because it lacks Dragonborn.
 

If you really wanted a Dragonborn I might allow it but being locked up and executed or sold into slavery would be your likely fate. A Drow would have it comparatively easy.
it occurs to me that if you have a player who wants to run a dragonborn, but isn't allowed to because 'it doesn't exist in this world' or 'as DM, I won't allow them', you're going to have an unhappy player... especially a generic world like GH....
 

Greyhawks more humanocentric, any other option was a demi human or a half breed.

There's a colonal pladoah thread up top and he was talking about what kind of reception a half ogre iirc could expect.

If your running around as demon spawn or dragon spawn it's a monstrous race.

Remember on Greyhawk the demi human races didn't always get along (see 1E phb racial antipathy table).

And that's with races that look mostly human. If individual DMs want to allow monstrous races that's on them, shouldn't be the default though.

If you really wanted a Dragonborn I might allow it but being locked up and executed or sold into slavery would be your likely fate. A Drow would have it comparatively easy.

If you think Wizards of the Coast is going to make a central feature of one of its settings "look, we have fantasy racism! The PHB races can't stand each other!", then you have severely misread the tea leaves.
 

it occurs to me that if you have a player who wants to run a dragonborn, but isn't allowed to because 'it doesn't exist in this world' or 'as DM, I won't allow them', you're going to have an unhappy player... especially a generic world like GH....

Boot the player, DM shortage plenty of players.

I'm running Midgard advertised a Egyptian themed game, got players no problem. Playing in 7 hours.
 

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