TSR When TSR Passed On Tolkien

Benjamin Riggs recently revealed this tidbit of TSR history -- Lorraine Williams passing on the rights to Tolkien's works in 1992!

"So, in 1992, TSR almost acquired the rights to JRR Tolkien's work. John Rateliff was sent to London to negotiate the deal, missing Gen Con. (Apparently, no TSR employees were allowed to miss Gen Con, but he was for this...) He met Christopher Tolkien at the Harper-Collins offices, where he asked for the rights to make RPGs, merch, and new books set in Middle-Earth. Chris Tolkien said yes to the RPGs, and some merch, but no to the fiction line.

Back in Lake Geneva, Rateliff communicated this to TSR CEO Lorraine Williams. Rateliff said, "Her immortal words were, ‘Not worth our while.’”

She then passed on the whole deal."

Rateliff wrote the book The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end.

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

Amazon.com: The History of the Hobbit: The Hobbit / Mr. Baggins / Return to Bag-end: 9780618964406: Rateliff, John D., Tolkien, J. R. R.: Books

www.amazon.com

 

[Zardnaar]

Ryan Dancey described seeing all the returns in the TSR warehouse, especially novels. But you have to view that image in context. The returns were not there simply because no one wanted the products. When Ryan toured the TSR warehouse, it was after Random House had flushed all TSR products out of their system, because the book trade distribution deal TSR had with Random House had collapsed. RH returned all the products and demanded repayment of all the money they had paid to TSR on receiving those products--every penny paid for any product that had not yet sold--because their deal with the company was over. If RH had held on to the books, a significant portion of that stuff would have sold.

Yes, TSR had been overprinting and overshipping products to Random House, because the company got paid on ship, not sale. (And fiction authors were paid royalties months after reported sales; so TSR held the money they received from RH on a novel's ship until sales were recorded and royalties eventually issued, meaning they made interest on that money during that lag. Giving them more reason to overship.) Yes, the company was cannibalizing its market by publishing too many different game lines and, with fiction, too many individual books. Remember, though: those books were still selling, just not to the level at which TSR was shipping them to Random House. And there were people in house at TSR warning upper management this was a bad practice as far back as 1990 or 1991.

Had TSR not been, essentially, digging the debt hole with Random House deeper with every product ship in the mid-1990s--had the company set realistic sales targets and not used Random House as an ATM--they probably would not have swamped themselves financially. That's not the only reason the company floundered, though, so who knows if it would have been enough to save them?

--Jim Lowder

I read an interview with Stan! IIRC.

He said something like Dragondice ordered 1 million sets sold 70k.

And Al Qadim made money while lavish production cost on Planescape caused it to lose money.

I've had suspicions on the Darksun boxed set as well. 2 posters, cloth map several books etc.

 

[JLowder]

I read an interview with Stan! IIRC.

He said something like Dragondice ordered 1 million sets sold 70k.

And Al Qadim made money while lavish production cost on Planescape caused it to lose money.

I've had suspicions on the Darksun boxed set as well. 2 posters, cloth map several books etc.

There were individual products that were not priced out correctly, but overall, the game products made money. Overprinting was an issue, but one complicated by the Random House distribution deal and general upper management irrationality and unwillingness to listen to the line and product editors. There were several products from which TSR made great money on the initial sales, but then went back and overproduced so badly they ended up as losers. DragonDice and Spellfire were examples of that, as I recall, but I was not part of those product teams.

--Jim Lowder

 

[billd91]

In all honesty, we should be glad it never happened. Just think, instead of the Peter Jackson movies, we would have ended up with a LoTR movie akin to the Dungeons and Dragons movie.

Why would anyone think this was likely to happen? The rights in question were for the RPG and some merch. Nothing else was on the table, certainly not the movie rights that were already being handled by Saul Zaentz (or mishandled if you were arguing from Ralph Bakshi’s perspective).

 

[darjr]

I read an interview with Stan! IIRC.

He said something like Dragondice ordered 1 million sets sold 70k.

And Al Qadim made money while lavish production cost on Planescape caused it to lose money.

I've had suspicions on the Darksun boxed set as well. 2 posters, cloth map several books etc.

Wait, Darksun boxed set had a cloth map?

 

[Zardnaar]

Wait, Darksun boxed set had a cloth map?

The revised one did yes, the maps were about the only good thing in that set.

Darksun cloth map - Google Search

 

[Sacrosanct]

Why would anyone think this was likely to happen? The rights in question were for the RPG and some merch. Nothing else was on the table, certainly not the movie rights that were already being handled by Saul Zaentz (or mishandled if you were arguing from Ralph Bakshi’s perspective).

I was making a joke

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

D&D is crunch, LofT is fluff, D&D is a LEGO box where you can use the piece to build new and different things, and LotR is a snow globe, beauty, but only to be watched. D&D is superheroes saving the day, LotR is epic+tragedy. D&D is finding a new surprise tomorrow, LotR is crying for the lost past.

And today you don't need buy books to get the lore, because reading wikis is enough.

* How do you imagine the plot of the failed sequel "the new shadow"? Tolkien had got some ideas, and I like the concepto of young generations with the full stomach like to play being "bad guys" because they don't know what is suffering hunger, fear and injustice...(but if you are a nerd suffering school bullying).

* TSR had got the copyrights of Conan the Barbarian, and those titles are forgotten.

* I like the idea of something like the worldscape from Pathfinder, a demiplane to allow crossovers with other franchises. (Hmmmm, how would be a crossover between Gamma World and M.A.S.K?, oh sorry,this is another matter). Maybe this "arena" world could be the next setting, perfect to introduce the D&D version of Hasbro franchises.

 

[Psyga315]

It makes sense. Williams was more interested in selling Buck Rogers, not LOTR.

 

[Count_Zero]

Ahem (scroll down to the list of what we’re doing).

That is awesome. My hope is that around the time the Amazon LotR series comes out and the general public (or people who sell things to the general public) starts thinking about Lord of the Rings again, this gets picked up by Target (or it even gets picked up by Target before that).

 

[Von Ether]

Back in Lake Geneva, Rateliff communicated this to TSR CEO Lorraine Williams. Rateliff said, "Her immortal words were, ‘Not worth our while.’”

But it was totally worth her while to shove the Buck Rogers IP onto TSR and double dip into the company coffers to do it (licence fee and finder's fee or some such) since her family owned the BR rights?

She might have been right, but it wouldn't surprise me if this was another bone-headed move of hers