What is the essence of D&D

[Nagol]

On a different note:

Mundane characters can absolutely explore a wreck without magic. Diving bells exist.

But DnD worlds are magical. The desire to carefully avoid ever having it be true that the best solution to a problem is magical is like making a science fiction game where it's never the case that technology is the best solution to a problem. It's not a reasonable requirement.

If you want less magical dnd, there are 3rd party options, like Adventures in Middle-Earth. That product is well balanced within itself, and magic users are by far the minority.

But for me, even if I'm playing a swashbuckler rogue with no magic of their own, I'm playing in a magical world where sometimes the diving bell is replaced with a ring of water breathing that you can buy from the shipwright that attaches to the mast of your ship, and allows you to breath water and ignore the pressure of the deep for a certain amount of time, x/day.

Because the literal physical world itself is magical.

I keep running into this in my own system as well, where one of my friends and fellow designers will point out that there's nothing stopping every character from gaining magic of some kind, and I'm just like..."Okay? So what? Why wouldn't every Wise (a term which here means, someone who knows about the supernatural) person find or learn magic of some kind? If someone wants to play the fantasy version of a Luddite, they can, but the game doesn't need to encourage it."

Diving bells may exist, but I suspect many campaigns don't have them. And a diving bell lets you see the wreck, not explore it. SCUBA gear on the other hand would let you explore it. It would be potentially more dangerous than using magic but that's OK! It moves the necessity to a convenience.

Having the world have had this question asked and a reasonably priced answer determined (like the mast ring) is great! An herb that grants water breathing for a hour would also work great. I just think the game would be better off with some strong systems/advice for DMs to include such in their worlds through faction support, incidental magic, or non-magical equivalents.

 

[Tony Vargas]

We are talking about different things here. Fourth edition is more interested in how a Fighter is different from a Barbarian or Ranger than other editions. Same goes for how different a Wizard is from a Bard, Sorcerer, Cleric, or Avenger.

IDK, it seems pretty concerned with both class distinctions within a source, within a role, and even within a source & role (Ranger & Rogue are quite distinct from eachother, as are Artificer and Bard, for instance).

Almost every other edition is more concerned with how different a spell caster is from a martial PC while not really having too much differentiation within the category.

Spell caster category? OK, yes, sure, back in the day, both Magic-users & Clerics (& Druids & Illusionists & high-level Paladins & Rangers & optional Bards) 'memorized' 'spells.' Vancian for everybody.

Ideally I think we should care about both in roughly equal measure.

I suppose there's something to be said for both similarity - mechanical consistency and parsimony of sub-systems, shared qualities among similar classes - and for differentiation - there's a point to the class even existing, choices have mechanically distinct functions, contributions, and concepts.

 

[Arnwolf666]

Now 4E healing surges and 13th age healing may be a quick fix for people that want to play that way. I always liked books with optional rules to allow players to customize a campaign the way they want.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not to get too scientific, but until decompression chambers, diving bells could be death traps.

OTOH, there's a myth that Alexander the Great, I think it was, had himself lowered into the sea in a glass box and observed an aquatic kingdom, complete with aquatic people picking fruit of aquatic trees. So, yeah, fantasy world, who knows.

Maybe you can just hold your breath /a really long time/. Beowulf sure did.

As ever, I am not too worried about scientific reality in a fantasy roleplaying game. Diving bells work in games because it's fun to let them work. That's all the explanation I need. Let Al dive in a glass case to the bottom of the ocean, I say.

I kinda gotta agree.
How' bout avoiding magic /always/ being the best solution? Maybe avoiding it being the /only/ solution? Or even, however occasionally, having it not offer a solution, at all?
That unreasonable?

I'm all for that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'd bet my entire savings account that if you went back and made the lead up to 4e friendlier to ... decreased the PHB number of powers in favor of including at least 1 of the PHB2 classes, released the rest of the PHB2 classes within the first year (and the gnome, for crying out loud...

4e PH1: June 2008, 4e PH2: March 2009. It was less than a year.

If they wanted to squeeze more content like classes & races in the PH1, they could've just put the magic items in the DMG.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Diving bells may exist, but I suspect many campaigns don't have them. And a diving bell lets you see the wreck, not explore it. SCUBA gear on the other hand would let you explore it. It would be potentially more dangerous than using magic but that's OK! It moves the necessity to a convenience.

Having the world have had this question asked and a reasonably priced answer determined (like the mast ring) is great! An herb that grants water breathing for a hour would also work great. I just think the game would be better off with some strong systems/advice for DMs to include such in their worlds through faction support, incidental magic, or non-magical equivalents.

You can...leave...a diving bell, and go back into it. People can hold their breath a long time in dnd. It seems to assume really healthy lungs and practice in the skill of holding one's breath. (I'd have tied it to the Athletics skill, myself)

You don't need never-ending continuous breathing to explore underwater. You just need a place to breath within range, and a decent handle on how long you can hold your breath, and how fast you can swim.

People explored underwater before scuba gear.

I'll never understand folks who need to restrict mundanes on the most strict possible terms, even erring on the side of going beyond how restrictive real life is. Just let them be cool, guys. It's fine.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Maybe they're magic diving bells...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

4e PH1: June 2008, 4e PH2: March 2009. It was less than a year.

If they wanted to squeeze more content like classes & races in the PH1, they could've just put the magic items in the DMG.

I don't really care about nit picking particulars. The wait was long enough that it bothered people. There shouldn't have been any significant wait. I am not interested in hashing out the best model for that in a weird hypothetical used to make a point about presentation and how the marketing was handled.

 

[Zardnaar]

4E powers aren't the same, I think they're repetitive but not the same.

It's a common complaint, it's clear what people are really complaining about us the powers themselves.

On release you couldn't really play an ill

4e PH1: June 2008, 4e PH2: March 2009. It was less than a year.

If they wanted to squeeze more content like classes & races in the PH1, they could've just put the magic items in the DMG.

That and not worrying about level 21-30.

I don't think anything would have saved 4E though as implemented the playstyle is to niche.

 

[Nagol]

You can...leave...a diving bell, and go back into it. People can hold their breath a long time in dnd. It seems to assume really healthy lungs and practice in the skill of holding one's breath. (I'd have tied it to the Athletics skill, myself)

You don't need never-ending continuous breathing to explore underwater. You just need a place to breath within range, and a decent handle on how long you can hold your breath, and how fast you can swim.

People explored underwater before scuba gear.

I'll never understand folks who need to restrict mundanes on the most strict possible terms, even erring on the side of going beyond how restrictive real life is. Just let them be cool, guys. It's fine.

I confess to not checking the current rules for holding one's breath. It used to be a minute or two, tops before bad things started happening. I see its up to 6 minutes for Con 20 types now. Which is a long time in D&D.