D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

Coroc

Hero
It's kinda funny how much earlier edition baggage holds over into the paladins of 5e.

Being a coward is not breaking your oath necessarily. Oath of Vengeance paladins wouldn't really have much of an issue here. Probably take it as a reason to go hunt down that dragon and slay it properly - thus vengeance - but pointlessly commit suicide by dragon? Not so much. My Oath of Conquest paladin might even strike a deal with the dragon.

Paladins are no longer the Captain America's of D&D


Well the standard lawful good is it devotion pala still is !!
And no freakin matter what oath of the flowerful ancient revenge shenanigan explanation why i cannnot handle an in game moral dilemma and should not because this is not captain america:

I would expect some kind of a fight even from a blackguard!

The only oath that fits the situation would be the oath of cowardice which has yet to be invented!

Yep.

Even for the issue of hood, which is better for good?

Refuse and we both die out here alone?
Give up the victim, get away, raise forces, slay dragon, rezz the fallen guy?

Folks are acting like the options were " one of you dies, which one?"

But I did not see any promise of living for the other guy if the pally gave himself up. Seemed to me to be a both die vs victim dies "choice".

Well then play some neutral or chaotic neutral aligned fighter with subclass in diviner, because then you can really confirm that the situation is give up the innocent or die respective you could foresee that you get your revenge i nfinding that dragon again and also a true resurrection later on because you need one, the dragon after consuming the guy would have turned him into fertilizer, i bet that revivify wont do the job here.



Yes, having a reputation as the 'hero' who feeds the helpless to a dragon, is enough of a punishment here. This is what I would do.

No, absolutely not. If you play like this have fun with it, but paladin is not about a fighter who can be healer and tank and via smiting a nova damage dealer.

No matter what oath there should be some hefty cost involved in that, depending on the oath of course but still, a knight is a knight not a wuzzy.
 

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CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Well thanks everyone, I spent all night turning this over in my head. I play a paladin in my wife's D&D group, and little nuances and difficult decisions like this one are my favorite parts of that character. So apologies if I go overboard.

There is a lot of discussion in this thread about the ethics of what this paladin did, and ethics is a tricky topic. The concepts of good and evil, right and wrong can vary greatly across cultures. The ancient Vikings had very different ideas about valor and bravery and "a fair fight", etc., than the soldiers of Victorian England had. So if we want to argue about whether or not feeding an NPC to a dragon is right or wrong, I have good news: you're absolutely right, no matter which side you argue for. :)

But for this specific example, the title of this thread is "Paladin Just Committed Murder, What Should Happen Next?" So let's accept the fact that the DM has already decided that the paladin's actions amount to murder in this context...it's right there, in the title of the post. The paladin/warlock is guilty of murder in this game world, so let's start there.

Where I live, murder is a felony offense that is punishable by life in prison. In other states, it can get you the death penalty. So before we ever start worrying about the paladin losing his special powers, he might need to worry about facing charges for negligent homicide (assuming negligent homicide is a crime in this world. It could be like Skyrim, where you can slaughter dozens of people in a cave and nobody bats an eye.)

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This wasn't a "no-win situation" either, that others have suggested. In the original post, the DM had expected the paladin to challenge the dragon in a contest of wills, rather than combat, and the player lost the challenge. That loss should have consequences, or at least an impact...otherwise, the NPC's life meant nothing. And if the NPC was inconsequential, why was there even a contest in the first place?

This is a classic scene from fantasy literature, where the hero of the story must match wits with a powerful foe. Bilbo vs. Smaug. Odysseus vs. the Cyclops. It is a classic set-up for a hero, and this hero botched it: Bilbo gave the One Ring to Smaug to save his own neck, Odysseus got scared and fed his men to the Cyclops. >sad trombone<

From the standpoint of the story, I feel there needs to be consequences for losing a contest of wills, just as there are consequences for losing a contest of battle. The nature of those consequences need to be discussed with (and agreed upon by) the player. Sure, the paladin didn't die as he might have in combat, but he certainly isn't a winner here.

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And what is a paladin anyway? A lot of players choose paladin because they want to be a fighter who can cast spells, but they don't like the lack of damaging spells on the Eldritch Knight's list. So they choose paladin because it lets them do lots of melee damage, and handwave or ignore the roleplaying aspects and requirements. (Side note, Warlock is another problematic class for this same reason, and this character has levels of both. I don't envy the DM here.)

There's nothing wrong with this approach; play the game you like to play.

As for me, I think a paladin should be more than just a fighter with magic powers, and those powers should come at a price. The Player's Handbook agrees, and describes a paladin as "warriors that have turned from their former occupations to take up arms to fight evil." And their spells and powers aren't freely given; the paladin's oath is "a powerful bond, a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion." It goes on, in several paragraphs, but this is already super-long.

I recognize that a lot of this stuff gets dismissed as "flavor text," and not played as hard-and-fast rules. So a lot of players end up frustrated when the DM reminds them that they have an obligation to their oath. (See also: reminding warlocks of their pact.)

Important note: It's fine if you want to play your paladin as a magical warrior and hand-wave the oath (or a warlock as a wizard and hand-wave the pact). All I'm saying is, the rules as-written won't back that argument.

So if the source of that paladin's power (his oath) was broken, he might be cut off from his powers until he can make things right. A mission to rescue or avenge the NPC might make for a cool side-quest. But we don't know what the paladin's oath was, so it might not even be an issue.

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Yikes, sorry this is so long. I'll wrap it up.

In conclusion, the paladin was presented with a classic fantasy trope (a battle of wits against a dragon) and failed, and consequences of that failure are appropriate. But without knowing more about the paladin's oath, and the rules of the game world, I can't make any recommendations on what should happen next.

Something should happen, though. Otherwise, what was the point?
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
He is 7th level {Paladin} with a level of warlock (! I know...)
Has already been asked, but: what deity & oath, what patron/pact?

Depending on the timing of the warlock level that could indicate a variety of things, has he been tempted and is in danger of falling? Did he start as a warlock but was redeemed or is fighting for redemption?

Or is it like Ancients/Archfey, or something else fairly compatible-seeming
 

Oofta

Legend
The point is that you're assuming that the player knew it was a battle of wits. You're punishing a player because they didn't play the way you wanted them to play.

Let's put it this way. Let's say the paladin wasn't carrying the NPC. Instead they were rushing to save them but the dragon gets there first and has time to eat the NPC before the paladin can do anything. Would it be murder? What if they're running to save the PC and the dragon gets there first but hasn't eaten the NPC yet. Would it be murder if the paladin looks at the dragon and decides there's no way in heck he can defeat said dragon and stops?

I had a scenario long ago where there were innocent villagers being hung from posts. The villagers had sacks on their heads and the first one they tried taking down turned into a troll. Without checking the others, they killed them all without verifying and it turned out that some of them could have been saved.

So I stripped the paladin of divine power until they had a chance to atone (they had to undergo a side quest). While I disagree that the paladin committed murder, a one time act does not make a paladin an oathbreaker. It has to be a conscious ongoing decision that the PC makes, not a one time mistake.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Is it established in your campaign that monsters can be defeated by staring them down with god-fuelled determination? Is this a normal strategy the party uses to defeat monsters? If not, how was the player supposed to read your mind and know that this particular dragon had a phobia of determined people?

You put the player in a situation where, as far as any reasonable person could see, his options were: Die for nothing (since the dragon would certainly have killed the injured man after shredding the paladin), or live and continue his quest to save the world. He made the obvious choice and now you want to punish him. You're calling it "murder" because he chose not to commit suicide in a no-win situation.

Unless there is a specific tenet of his specific oath that was violated, punishment is inappropriate. If there was such a tenet, the appropriate punishment is penance prescribed by a cleric of the same faith, as suggested in the PHB.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
<snip lots>

This wasn't a "no-win situation" either, that others have suggested. In the original post, the DM had expected the paladin to challenge the dragon in a contest of wills, rather than combat, and the player lost the challenge. That loss should have consequences, or at least an impact...otherwise, the NPC's life meant nothing. And if the NPC was inconsequential, why was there even a contest in the first place?

Ummm, how can the player know that? Is it common in the campaign? Do many overpowering monsters do that sort of thing? Why would a hungry dragon take that offer rather than, you know, eating a crunchy appetizer and then taking the doggy bag home?

Did Smaug know exactly where Frodo was and was he out and actively looking for food? How far would Odysseus have gotten if the cyclops was standing in front of him with his club ready when he tried his stuff?

This is a classic scene from fantasy literature, where the hero of the story must match wits with a powerful foe. Bilbo vs. Smaug. Odysseus vs. the Cyclops. It is a classic set-up for a hero, and this hero botched it: Bilbo gave the One Ring to Smaug to save his own neck, Odysseus got scared and fed his men to the Cyclops. >sad trombone<

Absolutely a classic from literature... which a D&D isn't and may or may not try to emulate. Genre moves only work if (a) everyone knows to try them and (b) the games casts them as workable. Moves like that that actually work otherwise become the stuff of grand legend at tables because of how unlikely they were to work.
 
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BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Honestly, the more I think about the situation I think the DM didn't think through his Dragon encounter with the Paladin before putting it into the game. The Paladin did the most logical thing which should have been something the DM expected and instead it flat out surprised the DM. Now the DM is wanting to severly punish the player for making the best of 2 bad choices in a scenario that never should have made it into the game to begin with.

Oh man I would have loved to have this encounter with my current CN Barbarian. But he would absolutely die before letting anyone, even a dragon, give him ultimatums.

But I think character deaths when fitting can be fun.

(I admit this has nothing to do with how I would handle this situation with this paladin)
 

Uller

Adventurer
The paladin did not commit murder. The dragon killed someone (which is no more murder than a wolf killing a deer).

Did the paladin fail to live up to his oath? That depends on what his oath is...if it involves sacruficing himself to save those that cannot defend themselves then yes...he failed and there should be some repercussion...but one that advances the story.
 


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