D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[Umbran]

That's not murder. I mean, it is, by the dragon. The paladin did nothing wrong here.

Well... Insofar as the normal law of the land does not require you to give your life up to defend others, they didn't break the law. This won't make you an Oathbreaker - that requires the breaking to be in the service of a dark ambition or other power, not just saving their own hide.

Whether there's a violation of Oath will depend on the Oath. A Paladin with an Oath of Vengeance, for example, now has a very specific target to deal with - that dragon. A paladin with an Oath of Devotion... is probably in deep trouble.

It might be interesting to talk with the player and have him change to Vengeance as a result of this, if they weren't already.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Does it change things to learn the PC in questions was Paladin 6/ Warlock 1

Maybe. What is the CR of an adult Dragon?

If you stood and fought the innocent could have ran away or hid. There was a chance you fighting the dragon gave the innocent life.

The injured innocent that the Paladin was already having to carry? I think that its acceptable to assume that the Dragon could trivially kill the innocent after it killed the Paladin if it wished.

Why does a paladin even have an oath if you're not going to do anything with it? I think it is great to give a player two bad choices. That is not to say that there aren't other options btw. But as a moral dliemma, I love it.

There is "Moral dilemma" and there is "DM forces a catch-22 situation where you either lose your character through death, or are forced to play it as a character with different motivations and behaviour than the character you wanted to play to start with".
From the questions posed in the OP, it seems pretty obvious that this situation did not have buy-in from the player. Saying its a call-back to the adversarial DMing style and anecdotes of the way some of those DMs treated paladins is about the politest way I could refer to it.

I've played a character that was in a similar situation. An undead dragon was about to kill several party members, and my barbarian had very few hitpoints left. So does he flee and live to fight another day, or does he die heroically?

He decided to throw off his armor and charge the dragon in the nude. He would gladly die to protect his friends, it would have been a heroic way to die.

That really doesn't sound similar at all. Was it a guaranteed TPK set up by the DM, the other party members died after your character's heroic charge anyway, and when it was over, did the DM say "Well, you could have just talked it down"?

Wait... making the player become an Oathbreaker is too harsh, but taking away all the abilities that make him a paladin until he atones isn't? At least as an Oathbreaker he could still contribute to the party.

Temporarily taking away some of his abilities, for only a day isn't really comparable with forcing a complete change of attitude and behaviour for the character. An Oathbreaker isn't likely to contribute to the party much.

 

[5ekyu]

If you stood and fought the innocent could have ran away or hid. There was a chance you fighting the dragon gave the innocent life.

There was a chance that if you danced a jig then a meteor would strike the dragon dead.

So, "chances" dont really help the discussion much given what we know.

"He was carrying an injured NPC to safety."

Unless we assume stoopid, the injured guy was worse at getting away on his own. Otherwise, why carry him? Was the oath made to Lyft?

"Unfortunately, an adult dragon cornered him." Adult dragon solo vs 7th level PC is not winnable unless extremely odd situation.

"Give me that man, and you can live. I hunger" it said."

Note no offer to take the paladin and let the injured live.


"He figured he should live to fight another day (and continue on the world-saving adventure the party are part way through)."

So, on top of this seemingly unwinnable situation, there is a literal world-at-stake quest involved., already engaged.

So, "cornered" and "carrying" both leave me to not really see any sort of dign that the fight letting the guy escape thing you imaginatively added was actually part of the scene. It certainly did not make the OP notice it enough to mention it.

Again, to me as described, the "service to good" option here is the one taken - accept failure in protecting this injured noc, survive, then save the world and return to dlay dragon and rezz the fallen in ehicheverborder makes sense.


There is a difference between trying and failing and breaking your oath.

The "carrying an injured NPC to safety" failed when the adult dragon caught them. Thecredt was just the consequences of that failure.

Unless of course "throw your life away for pride" is part of his oath.

 

[akr71]

Murder? No, not by the OP's explanation of events.

Oathbreaker? I dunno, maybe. Need more info.

Act of Cowardice by the paladin? Probably. At least it sounds like it to me.

I think any actual punishment should be dependent on where the party is. If they are in a town or city where actual laws are upheld, there should be some sort of punishment. If this happened out in the wilds, I think the paladin likely needs some sort of 'atonement quest' and possibly has reduced paladin abilities until completion of the quest.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Too many assumptions are being made, I think.

Was the paladin with his party? What were their chances of taking on the dragon. In 5e a party of 7th level characters well-built and played can definitely take out an adult dragon.

Was there a reason for the paladin to assume there wasn’t a decent chance of making it out of there alive without sacrificing the NPC?

Was there a good reason the dragon would actually let the paladin/party go if they handed over the NPC?

 

[Oofta]

A 7th level PC gets told by a CR 17 dragon to drop the injured NPC sounds like the start of a bad joke. Or a PC faced with a choice of giving the dragon what they wanted or committing suicide by dragon. Unless there was some reason for the player to believe they could stare down the dragon, they did nothing wrong and had no other option.

The DM put the player into a no win situation and then expected the player to read his mind. The player shouldn't be punished, the DM should try to listen to the feedback on this thread and not put people into no win situations.

On a side note if a DM has a problem with a paladin multi-classing into warlock, they should make a house rule banning that combination.

 

[Wiseblood]

There is the assumption here that it was fight and die or surrender the injured to a hungry dragon. Why not use that charisma instead of being an ironclad oaf? The life was not yours to give. Did the character not have rations? Was the dragon in imminent danger of starvation?

I propose name changes to some paladin spells in honor of this paladin.

Heroism=Better Part of Valor
Divine Favor= Gods May be on My Side
Shield of Faith=Better Be Sure of the Outcome Before I Fight



FWIW I think it was a mistake to allow non LG paladins.

 

[Oofta]

Too many assumptions are being made, I think.

Was the paladin with his party? What were their chances of taking on the dragon. In 5e a party of 7th level characters well-built and played can definitely take out an adult dragon.

Was there a reason for the paladin to assume there wasn’t a decent chance of making it out of there alive without sacrificing the NPC?

Was there a good reason the dragon would actually let the paladin/party go if they handed over the NPC?

I don't know what game you play, but a party of 7th level PCs wouldn't stand a chance against an adult red dragon unless they were extremely lucky and had prep time in my campaign. One failed dex save vs breath weapon would be the death of most PCs.

 

[Oofta]

I just double checked Oath of Devotion paladin's tenets and I don't see "must play lawful stupid to the point of suicide" on the list. There is "Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise."

Sometimes caution is the better part of valor.

 

[Bawylie]

Wait... making the player become an Oathbreaker is too harsh, but taking away all the abilities that make him a paladin until he atones isn't? At least as an Oathbreaker he could still contribute to the party.



In the OP, it specifically says this is NOT a murderhobo game.

I misread the OP. Thank you for the correction.

The first bit you quoted is attributed to me, but I didn’t say anything about taking away spellcasting.