D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[FrogReaver]

Honestly, the more I think about the situation I think the DM didn't think through his Dragon encounter with the Paladin before putting it into the game. The Paladin did the most logical thing which should have been something the DM expected and instead it flat out surprised the DM. Now the DM is wanting to severly punish the player for making the best of 2 bad choices in a scenario that never should have made it into the game to begin with.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep.

Even for the issue of hood, which is better for good?

Refuse and we both die out here alone?
Give up the victim, get away, raise forces, slay dragon, rezz the fallen guy?

Folks are acting like the options were " one of you dies, which one?"

But I did not see any promise of living for the other guy if the pally gave himself up. Seemed to me to be a both die vs victim dies "choice".

Do the ends actually justify the means? I don't know.

But I do know that the highest ideal of good that I know is one where the ends don't justify the means. Sacrificing innocents on the way to defeating a greater evil may very well be necessary but it doesn't live up to that highest idealized good - where you find a way to save the innocents and defeat the greater evil.

 

[Oofta]

Honestly, the more I think about the situation I think the DM didn't think through his Dragon encounter with the Paladin before putting it into the game. The Paladin did the most logical thing which should have been something the DM expected and instead it flat out surprised the DM. Now the DM is wanting to severly punish the player for making the best of 2 bad choices in a scenario that never should have made it into the game to begin with.

I'm not sure we know enough about the situation. What was the level of the paladin? Was there any reason at all for the player to believe the paladin even had a chance?

The fundamental issue here is that a DM set up a situation and then made assumptions about how the paladin should react. I understand the temptation, but the PC is not being run by the DM. Did the paladin have any reason whatsoever to believe they could survive the encounter? If not, you're asking the player to have their PC commit suicide, to stop playing a PC that they may be quite fond of playing. It feels like "Ha! Play a paladin? Well I'm going to punish you by putting you into a no win situation! Bwahaha!"

As others have said, there's still a chance for the hapless PC. Find the lair and a few bones and cast a resurrection.

 

[jasper]

Hmm NOT MURDER. NOT MANSLAUTER, NO BROKEN OATH. Coward Maybe. DM putting Paladin in no win situation. YES. Even a young dragon is CR 6. So Paladin was outclassed. See my Paladin thoughts thread I just created but.

At worst I would have his gawd talk to him in a dream, and MAYBE pull his second level spell slots for a week.

Now you do have a side quest for Pally and Pals to go kick the dragon’s buttocks. Which I see you are thinking of.

 

[Blue]

Take the character sheet off the player, erase the "G" or "N" in the alignment field, write "E", then hand the character sheet back to the player.

I would walk away from your table so fast if you did that.

How I play my character is up to no one but me. THAT is the one thing the DM has no control over by both rule and social contract.

I bet you'd be offended if I had a whim and came over to your side of the DM screen, changed your notes about the rest of the world and blithely assumed that I was entitled to do so and that you now had no choice but to take it as canon.

Tell me that's what you'd like so we craft something together - absolutely. Failure makes great story. Attempting redemption is a great story. Joseph Campbell's Hero Myth requires a "death" before coming fully into one's own and this could be it.

There's so much the DM can do. Kill my character - sure the DM can do that, it's that part of the social bargain about the risks they assume adventuring. Turn my character to stone, lop off a limb, kill and NPC dear to me or have them betray my character - same story.

But telling me how to play my character? Not. On. The. Freaking. Table.

 

[5ekyu]

Do the ends actually justify the means? I don't know.

But I do know that the highest ideal of good that I know is one where the ends don't justify the means. Sacrificing innocents on the way to defeating a greater evil may very well be necessary but it doesn't live up to that highest idealized good - where you find a way to save the innocents and defeat the greater evil.

This does not seem to be a sacrificing innocents case tho. This seems - barring more info - a both die or one dies with nothing to say if the pally gives himself up the other guy lives.

This is an attempt to save the other guy that failed when the dragon caught them... not at the point the pally was given the trap choice.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not sure we know enough about the situation. What was the level of the paladin? Was there any reason at all for the player to believe the paladin even had a chance?

The fundamental issue here is that a DM set up a situation and then made assumptions about how the paladin should react. I understand the temptation, but the PC is not being run by the DM. Did the paladin have any reason whatsoever to believe they could survive the encounter? If not, you're asking the player to have their PC commit suicide, to stop playing a PC that they may be quite fond of playing. It feels like "Ha! Play a paladin? Well I'm going to punish you by putting you into a no win situation! Bwahaha!"

As others have said, there's still a chance for the hapless PC. Find the lair and a few bones and cast a resurrection.

Does it change things to learn the PC in questions was Paladin 6/ Warlock 1

 

[FrogReaver]

This does not seem to be a sacrificing innocents case tho. This seems - barring more info - a both die or one dies with nothing to say if the pally gives himself up the other guy lives.

This is an attempt to save the other guy that failed when the dragon caught them... not at the point the pally was given the trap choice.

If you stood and fought the innocent could have ran away or hid. There was a chance you fighting the dragon gave the innocent life.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

But telling me how to play my character? Not. On. The. Freaking. Table.

I didn't tell you how to play your character - you already did that.

If a player has their character do evil things then they write "evil" on the character sheet.

 

[FrogReaver]

I didn't tell you how to play your character - you already did that.

If a player has their character do evil things then they write "evil" on the character sheet.

What if a player has their character do mostly good things with a rare evil thing every now and then?