D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Undrave]

You get the extra feat at level 6. That’s not way past most campaigns. And you don’t have to spend it on combat. There are three pillars of the game. If you choose to only focus on combat, that’s on you. Not the game. Fact is, they have the option. Which means they have the option to have out of combat functionality that is pretty significant. You need to stop acting like your playstyle is the only way the game is played, or how it is designed. You’re objectively wrong. Basically, your entire argument is they don’t have the functionality the way you want it, so they don’t have it at all. That’s demonstratively false.

“Fighters don’t have anything out of combat.”
“Yes they do, here is a list.”
“Well, I don’t play that way, so they don’t have it”

Technically Feats are an optional rule so basically Fighters out-of-combat options were designed as an optional rule?

Level 6 is still late for your first out of combat option if you do decide to forego maxing out your main attack stat and thus sacrificing the 'Fighting' part of 'Fighter'. A Rogue's Expertise doesn't cost them Sneak Attack dice.

And again, Feats are not restricted to the Fighter, even if they get more chance to get them.

I honestly don't think the fighter needs anything else to help outside of combat, I can just leverage my skills for that, no class ability or spell needed.

Again: EVERYBODY can leverage skills. That's the baseline everybody gets... and even there, Fighters get 1 less than other classes for no discernable reasons.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Action Surge for all subclasses.

Let's go through the rest of the subclasses except Champion:
Arcane Archer gets proficiency in either the Arcana or the Nature skill, and either the prestidigitation or the druidcraft cantrip
BattleMaster gets proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice.
Cavalier gets proficiency in one of the following skills of your choice: Animal Handling, History, Insight, Performance, or Persuasion, or a language, plus mount skills.
Eldritch Knight gets two wizard cantrips and a spell of their choice
Samurai gets proficiency in one of the following skills of your choice: History, Insight, Performance, or Persuasion, or a language.

Does that help?

Also, it’s before level 4, not 6, since that’s when you get your first feat choice. Level 6 is just the extra one. And if out of combat functionality is so important to your champion fighter you chose to play, you can get a lot of out of combat functionality at level 4 with that feat choice.

 

[Ratskinner]

• *The game is designed for all common play styles, so there must be a mechanically simpler class like the fighter

Having played a few ahem other games...

IMO/E, the mechanical complexity in 5e exists almost solely to keep the sacred herd alive, rather than support much in the way of playstyles. It certainly isn't necessary to support a wide variety of archetypes.

 

[Mistwell]

Technically Feats are an optional rule so basically Fighters out-of-combat options were designed as an optional rule?

Ability Score Improvements also help with out of combat. In fact in some ways they help with out of combat more than most powers in the game, as it's usually a host of skills.

Again: EVERYBODY can leverage skills. That's the baseline everybody gets... and even there, Fighters get 1 less than other classes for no discernable reasons.

Almost every fighter subclass gives them one or more additional proficiencies. Are people just not aware of this, or because they're in the subclasses and ONE subclass doesn't provide a proficiency it "doesn't count"?

 

[Sacrosanct]

Technically Feats are an optional rule so basically Fighters out-of-combat options were designed as an optional rule?

Level 6 is still late for your first out of combat option if you do decide to forego maxing out your main attack stat and thus sacrificing the 'Fighting' part of 'Fighter'. A Rogue's Expertise doesn't cost them Sneak Attack dice.

And again, Feats are not restricted to the Fighter, even if they get more chance to get them.



Again: EVERYBODY can leverage skills. That's the baseline everybody gets... and even there, Fighters get 1 less than other classes for no discernable reasons.

That’s some major goal post shifting going on

Fighters don’t have anything. Well, I don’t play that way so they don’t REALLY have anything. Oh, well they don’t have anything other people can’t also choose.

They have the option. They get two extra feats no one else gets, that is a UNIQUE function of that class. If a fighter and class C all took the same feats, the fighter gets two more class C can’t take, effectively making it so they don’t in fact get the option to take the same options as the fighter.

 

[ccs]

Does not sound like a blaster caster who has actual competency (at least comparable to the super simple fighter) and Does he magically also get zero things he can do outside of combat AND is he still as competent as people who actually make use of the complexity and assumed resources that class has even for combat. That is supposed to be the value of the simple class

To allow the I do not want to engage with the systems resources and decision making and still be capable.

I've seen a fair # of casters played exactly as if all they could do was spam damage cantrips.
Occasionally they'll cast a real spell - when they want to do more/different damage. They were all very capable of causing damage.
Does the character/class have the potential to do more than just blast? Yes of course.
Do the players behind them?. . . . No. That's why they're playing them like that.

And I'm sorry, but you'll have to point out wich class has nothing to do outside of combat.
40 years of playing these games come Christmas & 7 editions (BEcmi/Compendium, 1e, 2e, 3x, 4e, 5e, +PF1) and I haven't seen that class yet.
I HAVE seen plenty of players who chose not to do anything outside combat. though. We all have. Are you perhaps mistaking those players for their characters?

 

[5ekyu]

Then maybe this would help...

What do fighters get for out of combat before level 6? It seems to me that not getting any out of combat abilities before level 6 is a problem that needs fixed

Backgrounds and races can be chosen to get those as well.

Again, the " problem" seems to keep getting redefined to make it more znd more "if I makexall my chouces for combat, why dont I get more out of combat ability?"

Now, apply that same logic to the sorcerer or bard.

If they make all their choices for social or for exploration - choose no combat spells, no combat feats, no combat skills and no combat feature provided races- then what can we do to "fix" their lack of combat power?

Surely, we cannot leave them with that much anemic offense.

 

[Garthanos]

I've seen a fair # of casters played exactly as if all they could do was spam damage cantrips.

You didnt answer the question I said is he competent when he just blasts? or is he really accomplishing next to nothing? Is the class actually supporting him or was the caster assumed to be a complex multi-option class?

 

[Undrave]

Fair point on the ability score, but rolling for a skill, proficiency or not, is basically just letting the dice decide. It's still the baseline everybody gets and not something unique. It's lacking in flavor you know? Sometimes your high Wisdom character keeps rolling below 5 on his ONE useful skill >.<

I guess that happens to everybody but DnD doesn't make skill failiures particularly interesting unless a pit is involved.

Rogues get expertise and later a power that prevents them from rolling poorly. Meanwhile casters get some "Press button to do X" spells where the result is basically assured. Sure they can't do it at-will, I know, but it's just nice to know that when the situation arise you got more chance to pull something off than not.

Almost every fighter subclass gives them one or more additional proficiencies. Are people just not aware of this, or because they're in the subclasses and ONE subclass doesn't provide a proficiency it "doesn't count"?

It IS nice. If Fighters got their subclass earlier like the Cleric then those would actually be a great feature.

That’s some major goal post shifting going on

Pretty sure I and others have mentionned the whole 'unique' aspect before? Maybe not in this thread I suppose. Sorry.

But maybe it's all a perception thing... Class features are like Halloween candy (its in season): everybody got mini chocolate bars and lollipops and the Fighter got more lollipops than everybody else, but he's looking at the other kids and they have fancy bubblegum and sour candy and some of their chocolates are mini reeses bars and they'd like to try some but nobody wants to give them any saying "You got all those lollipops! you should be happy!" but always the same stuff gets boring after a while.

And of course there's the way that combat feat are generally weighted in builds if you look at guides out there.

Maybe the Fighter SHOULDN'T have had their class features shunted off to optional rules land like in 3e and had actual unique style to it? Keep the extra ASI for the Champion?

And maybe I'm just not a good enough player to make do with a few skills and improvisation? I mean, I do suck at using illusions too. So of course I should be told to sit in the corner while the Casters bend the universe or shut up when the smart players are talking.

I used to be decent at small scale tactical combat but that was pretty much gutted out of the game so maybe I'm just bitter too. I'm one of those filthy boardgamer who prefers to use... minis

Maybe new out of combat stuff is not NEEDED for the Fighter to balance with other classes, but I can't help but think it would still be more fun if it did have unique stuff of its own. Can you really argue against that?

 

[Garthanos]

If they make all their choices for social or for exploration

Classically the wizard makes those choices one day out in the field then the next pick a different set of choices.