D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Sacrosanct]

Lol, it’s not a personal attack to say the impression you’ve given me is that you have the idea that unless you’re optimized, you aren’t competent, and then promptly make a post backing that impression up (I won’t even address the fundamental flaws in your “math” either)

 

[Monayuris]

Then do the freakin math instead of personal attacks!

A level 11 fighter that doesn't use ASI's for combat will do about 18 damage per turn and have 3 action surges. Over 20 rounds of combat that's 414 damage.

A level 11 Wizard will do about 413.7 damage per 20 rounds using fireball and firebolt - only looking at the single target impact.

Objectively that makes this no combat ASI fighter much worse than the wizard at combat - and that's just in the damage realm.

If they are throwing fireball and firebolt every round, then that means they aren't casting other spells that are defensive in nature.

How much damage are they taking? How likely are they to avoid attacks when they aren't using their spells for purposes other than direct damage?

There are many factors to this. Are the foes able to move? Fireball is strong, but some monsters, especially at that CR can take one or two of them. What are these monsters doing in between Fireballs? If they are charging the wizard then what is the wizard doing in response?

If the wizard is continuing to fireball, then it is not mitigating damage against itself and will suffer from lower AC and hit point totals. If it turns spell use to protecting itself, then it is not outputting as much damage.

Meanwhile, the fighter is outputting its damage without any degradation of its defensive capabilities and it has the AC and hit points to accept incoming damage.

Your math is outside of any real (well game world real) situation. You need to define more clear parameters.

 

[Sacrosanct]

If they are throwing fireball and firebolt every round, then that means they aren't casting other spells that are defensive in nature.

How much damage are they taking? How likely are they to avoid attacks when they aren't using their spells for purposes other than direct damage?

There are many factors to this. Are the foes able to move? Fireball is strong, but some monsters, especially at that CR can take one or two of them. What are these monsters doing in between Fireballs? If they are charging the wizard then what is the wizard doing in response?

If the wizard is continuing to fireball, then it is not mitigating damage against itself and will suffer from lower AC and hit point totals. If it turns spell use to protecting itself, then it is not outputting as much damage.

Meanwhile, the fighter is outputting its damage without any degradation of its defensive capabilities and it has the AC and hit points to accept incoming damage.

Your math is outside of any real (well game world real) situation. You need to define more clear parameters.

Indeed. Then other factors like, are the spells counterspelled? That’s easy to do. What if the fighting is prolonged between ability to rest and it goes 50 rounds during the day? Wizards are generally easier to hit, and are much worse at making CON saving throws, so the relatively frequent venomous attacks or poisoned ranged weapons will drop the wizard a whole lot faster. And why level 11? What about other levels? What about level 1. If the wizard bypasses defensive spells for offense, does the fighter bypass a shield for two weapon fighting? Etc, etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

If they are throwing fireball and firebolt every round, then that means they aren't casting other spells that are defensive in nature.

How much damage are they taking? How likely are they to avoid attacks when they aren't using their spells for purposes other than direct damage?

There are many factors to this. Are the foes able to move? Fireball is strong, but some monsters, especially at that CR can take one or two of them. What are these monsters doing in between Fireballs? If they are charging the wizard then what is the wizard doing in response?

If the wizard is continuing to fireball, then it is not mitigating damage against itself and will suffer from lower AC and hit point totals. If it turns spell use to protecting itself, then it is not outputting as much damage.

Meanwhile, the fighter is outputting its damage without any degradation of its defensive capabilities and it has the AC and hit points to accept incoming damage.

Your math is outside of any real (well game world real) situation. You need to define more clear parameters.

Why exactly can't they cast shield or absorb elements?

 

[FrogReaver]

Indeed. Then other factors like, are the spells counterspelled? That’s easy to do. What if the fighting is prolonged between ability to rest and it goes 50 rounds during the day? Wizards are generally easier to hit, and are much worse at making CON saving throws, so the relatively frequent venomous attacks or poisoned ranged weapons will drop the wizard a whole lot faster. And why level 11? What about other levels? What about level 1. If the wizard bypasses defensive spells for offense, does the fighter bypass a shield for two weapon fighting? Etc, etc.

I was examining the impact of not taking ASI's for combat. Obviously that can't happen before level 4 and ideally will be looked at after level 8. Anyways - I'm out as this is a pointless discussion. You making up objections as you go along that don't even make sense.

 

[Monayuris]

Why exactly can't they cast shield or absorb elements?

These spells run out and eventually they are subjected to attacks against their natural AC. I mean if we are assuming that a wizard does not spend spell slots on ANYTHING else during the entirety of the adventure, how many can they cast? 4? (you can't cast these spells with higher level slots)

The example is an encounter of 20 rounds. So, 4 uses of Shield in 20 rounds, max.

Also Absorb Elements is from a supplement and can't always be assumed to be available in any given campaign.

Fighter can have equal or better AC without needing to spend spell slots.

 

[FrogReaver]

These spells run out and eventually they are subjected to attacks against their natural AC.

Fighter can have equal or better AC without needing to spend spell slots.

I think your wizards get attacked a lot more than they do in the games I've played in.

 

[FrogReaver]

Lol, it’s not a personal attack to say the impression you’ve given me is that you have the idea that unless you’re optimized, you aren’t competent, and then promptly make a post backing that impression up (I won’t even address the fundamental flaws in your “math” either)

There are no flaws in my math. Check the freakin numbers!

 

[Monayuris]

Double post

 

[FrogReaver]

Let me leave this question on the thread -

What evidence would convince you that a class is extremely underpowered at combat when not taking any combat ASI's or feats?

From where I stand - that's been set up as an impossible endeavor.