D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[Mistwell]

Why would I play a Champion when I already know they won't be something I will enjoy - because I already know they suck out of combat and barely keep up in combat?

His standard was like requiring video evidence before he would convict - it's an impossible standard because the kind of evidence he is asking for doesn't exist.

First this was not an objection to just one subclass it was to the entire class so your attempt to reduce it down to the one is an absurd moving target.

Second, repeating your one-liner about his standard, with nothing to back up your one-liner, is meaningless. Of course you can meet the standard - play the friggen class and discover if it's a real problem! This has already been responded to, by him and me, and you don't appear to have any answer to those responses.

IF you don't play it at the table and actually find a problem with it, then I don't care about your white room theory that it might not be good. Play it and come back when you have an actual problem.

 

[FrogReaver]

First this was not an objection to just one subclass it was to the entire class so your attempt to reduce it down to the one is an absurd moving target.

Second, repeating your one-liner about his standard, with nothing to back up your one-liner, is meaingless. It's already been responded to, by him and me, and you don't appear to have any answer to those responses other than to just repeat it as if it will suddenly make a point that it didn't make earlier, is silly.

IF you don't play it at the table and actually find a problem with it, then I don't care about your white room theory that it might not be good. Play it and come back when you have an actual problem.

Which means that anyone that sees an issue must waste their time playing something with an issue just to prove it to you (which it won't anyways).... nah... that don't make sense. It's not a reasonable position to hold.

 

[Salthorae]

Prove it.

You prove that they suck out of combat. Show me that they are objectively so bad at things out of combat that they "suck".

I can have fun in any pillar of the 5e game with any character class, Champion Fighter or otherwise.

"Sucking" in any pillar isn't on the class or the subclass, the backround, or feats. It's on the player, how they approach the different aspects of the game, their character, and how they structure their character from the ground up, including knowing who that character is and what they're all about.

Some characters may be more mechanically optimal than others in a Pillar. That doesn't mean the less optimal one "sucks", it just means that their class wasn't geared towards a particular pillar and you have to be creative or engage in that pillar in a different way than "my modifier is bigger than yours".

 

[FrogReaver]

You prove that they suck out of combat. Show me that they are objectively so bad at things out of combat that they "suck".

I can have fun in any pillar of the 5e game with any character class, Champion Fighter or otherwise.

"Sucking" in any pillar isn't on the class or the subclass, the backround, or feats. It's on the player, how they approach the different aspects of the game, their character, and how they structure their character from the ground up, including knowing who that character is and what they're all about.

Some characters may be more mechanically optimal than others in a Pillar. That doesn't mean the less optimal one "sucks", it just means that their class wasn't geared towards a particular pillar and you have to be creative or engage in that pillar in a different way than "my modifier is bigger than yours".

That's an odd definition of "doesn't suck" that you have.

 

[Salthorae]

That's an odd definition of "doesn't suck" that you have.

"Doesn't suck" = "fun to play" is an odd definition?

I'm through trying to have a reasonable dialogue with you. It seems it can't be done.

 

[Mistwell]

Which means that anyone that sees an issue

You know how you see an issue? It comes up in play. You don't see it in a book, or on an excel spreadsheet.

must waste their time playing something with an issue just to prove it to you (which it won't anyways).... nah... that don't make sense. It's not a reasonable position to hold.

Wait before you repeatedly said it was "impossible" and now it's apparently just not even that hard just tedious a bit...though you'd still be playing a game, with friends. So it shouldn't be too harsh.

Go play the game FrogReaver. If you find a problem with your game, come here and tell us about how the problem happened and I am sure we can provide advice on how to address it to your satisfaction.

 

[FrogReaver]

"Doesn't suck" = "fun to play" is an odd definition?

I'm through trying to have a reasonable dialogue with you. It seems it can't be done.

Yea that’s and odd definition and one that the rest of us doesn’t use.

But sure if you want to change suckiness to mean lack of fun that’s obviously the reason we can’t have a reasonable discussion - because you don’t accept a reasonable definition of sucks - so you just talk past me like you ain’t got a clue what I’m talking about when you actually do

 

[FrogReaver]

You know how you see an issue? It comes up in play. You don't see it in a book, or on an excel spreadsheet.



Wait before you repeatedly said it was "impossible" and now it's apparently just not even that hard just tedious a bit...though you'd still be playing a game, with friends. So it shouldn't be too harsh.

Go play the game FrogReaver. If you find a problem with your game, come here and tell us about how the problem happened and I am sure we can provide advice on how to address it to your satisfaction.

Maybe I’m just better than you at spotting issues. Some of us don’t have to try something to know somethings wrong with it.

“I’m not goina try moldy bread so I can tell ya it’s nasty”

 

[Sacrosanct]

Prove it.

I already did. When I mentioned updthread about my champion fighter with the urchin background and skulker and dungeon delver feats. I was actually pretty good out of combat, in the exploration pillar. And had a lot of fun.

Yea that’s and odd definition and one that the rest of us doesn’t use.

"rest of us"? Do you speak for everyone now?

Maybe I’m just better than you at spotting issues.

mmmm....I doubt that.

Some of us don’t have to try something to know somethings wrong with it.

“I’m not goina try moldy bread so I can tell ya it’s nasty”

That's a flawed analogy because most everyone knows and agrees that moldy bread isn't good to eat. In your argument, it's not only not the majority consensus, but certainly seems the minority.

You clearly seem to be taking the position that anything not optimized sucks. Lots of people disagree with you. The game design disagrees with you in how it was designed. Not sure why you're steadfastly trying to act like your personal preference is the objective one true way things should be done.

 

[Sacrosanct]

"White room theorycrafting, at least for me, became a lot less attractive of a hobby near the end of 3e. After time, as I played the game more, I found the theorycrafting very rarely matched the actual play experience."

Yup.

To me, my experiences, white room excel crafting barely rises beyond the level as far as convincing or evidence as do the conspiracy theories we see around everywhere IRL. Often as not, its put forth as if "prove me wrong" instead of actually proving anything about actual play. It also tends to jump to extremes way too quickly for my tastes.

The number crunching has its place at design and at many places but it does not hold up as the lion's share overriding and trumping actual play and other game considerations.

Simply put a lot of the elements that matter an awful lot in actual gameplay and actual results and actual enjoyment are not numerically represrntable and suited to be judged by equations- and do tend to be dropped by the white room excel conspiracists.

I have found, relatively early on, that 5e seems to be the worst edition in trying to apply white room theorycrafting to actual play. It just isn't reliable