D&D 5E Fixing the fighter (I know...)

[5ekyu]

"Doesn't suck" = "fun to play" is an odd definition?

I'm through trying to have a reasonable dialogue with you. It seems it can't be done.

Honestly, doesnt suck and fun to play seem to me for class design yo be damn near synonyms. Isnt the goal of game design to produce things that are fun to play?

 

[Garthanos]

what you're analyzing is not actually meant to be used by anyone.

LOL

 

[5ekyu]

The you should be able to tell us what about 5e D&d makes it immune to analysis...

Just pointing out the claim made was not about abpnalysis, just white room theorycrafting analysis.

It was made I believe to point out the value different between that and analysis based on resukts actual play at the table in actual games.

Let me point out one example...

It's not at all uncommon to see references made by these ehitecroom excel warriors that base some assumption on "the average of" or "the frequency of" distribution of scores in the Monster Manual, rating each appearance in a stat block os say an AC vslue or a threat to a save type or saving throw scores equally in its tallies.

That is easily (drudgery) to compile and turn into numbers and scores snd ratios that can then be used to assess this feature vs that feature DPR etc.

But, in actual fact, no actual games use the distribution in the MM to populate their adversaries, much less the ones in encounters that matter. Those are chosen not just driven by page flip. It's the ones chosen in game play that serve as the lens through which actual play results come into focus.

In game actual play results bring all sides into play- protagonist and challenge and choice - to be seen, considered and evaluated. White room excel solo matherizing is, well, like a one-man duck measuring contest...

 

[ClaytonCross]

In my opinion, there are a couple of things that could be done that still meet the above list and can address many of the grievances I hear. These are:

To avoid a strawman argument you really need to state these grievances. You have written a long thought post making it very clear that you want to argue off a specific point. Then you fail to list any points of grievance about the champion sub-class directly. Only the below "fixes" are mentioned. So now we are all required to make straw man arguments because your inferring a problem without defining it, then if you don't like our answer you just claim its a strawman argument and that was never your intended point of topic. So before I try and add any input here... I am going to ask "what your solutions below are fixes for?", then we need you to stat the grievances you hear that cause them to be required, or no forward progress can be made due to lack of mutual understand of what the issues is to begin with.

*changing remarkable athlete to give full prof bonuses to any str or dex skill, and double prof bonus to any two proficient skills. -OR- maybe something along the lines of having a climbing and swimming speed that equals your movement speed, and jumping distances increase by prof bonus.

Better movement and expertise in skills they already had? So they are simply just better at what they already did... Do they have mobility issues or some deficiency caused by the skills they already have? Without explanation your just stealing thieves Expertise class feature.

*the first four ASI improvements also allow you to choose one saving throw you’re not proficient in, and gain that proficiency.

Proficiency in all saves? I mean again, your making the class stronger, but without explanation your just stealing Diamond Soul feature. What use with the champion sub-class are you fixing?

* with each additional ASI improvement past the first four, choose one damage type, and gain resistance to that damage (various elemental, psychic, slashing, etc)

So your making them much harder to kill through damage resistance which is like stealing the barbarian rage feature without the flaws and unlimited in use since you don't have any requirement to maintain it or limited number of activations like rage does.

Overall it looks like jealousy of other class, but more over you could easily multi-class to gain 2 of the 3 features. They do make the champion sub-class better but actually, all together they would make it pretty broken in my opinion, since you stole three of the best and most unique features of other classes. I might suggest something with a lighter touch, like a blanket damage reduction equal to champion's constitution modifier, advantage on all saving through vs instead of proficiency (because its still capped by the modifier), and an extra skill proficiency from the fighter skill list for variety. However, I can't say that's at all in the right train of thought because it has not been clearly defined that the issue is survivability or versatility of build, so I am forced it to guessing at the risk of being told this is a strawman argument.

 

[ClaytonCross]

The most common complaints I hear are that the fighter can’t do awesome stuff like spells can do, and that they can’t do anything of consequence out of combat.

My feelings on the former are well documented (if you want a class to do magical things, learn magic), but for the former, are there ways we can improve on the character and player agency while adhering to the above requirements.

lol, nothing you suggested addresses "can’t do anything of consequence out of combat" however, the fighter gets 2 more ASI than other class which could be used for out of combat feats to make the character more interesting, players style of play can make a character, a lot more interesting, however the assertion that campions can't cast spells is correct. They are not supposed to. In order for use to address doing something out of combat of consequence, I would suggest an extra skill proficiency of the players choice... however, all your "fixes" seem geared to in combat, with expertise in athletics for knocking enemies prone, proficiency in saves to avoid negative effects of enemy spell casters, and resistance to damage times ... these are not "can’t do anything of consequence out of combat" fixes. So your undermining your own goal.

Adding 1 proficiency of the players choice on the other hand, means letting your champion take stealth in a dex build and act like a thief, or persuasion and not dumping charisma lets you act as the party face, taking investigation along with perception and survival then not dumping intelligence or wisdom (12s would be fine) and the champion can be a functional scout by taking the urchin background feature.

Basically adding one skill of your choice is more effective toward your stated goal than all 3 of your suggestions combine. I would also say tool proficiencies have a lot of application out of combat. I have a Forge Cleric who is a smith in down time and building weapons and armor for the whole party out of combat... which is something casters can't do. I also have proficiency with dice and with ok constitution plus tavern brawler, you can gamble and pit fit while the caster sits idely by. In order to address "can’t do anything of consequence out of combat" your going to have to be more specific in what's holding you down, because back ground, race, and feats allow for ALOT of out of combat actions of consequence and being salty because you can't cast spells just makes everyone want to say"then play a caster next time?..." I am not saying you don't have a valid point... I am saying you have made your point so vague that there is no way for anyone to offer useful advice or suggestions. They the only "fixes" you offer for the problem are combat fixes, which the campion does not have problems with and that you have even attempted to say is a problem with the subclass... what?!?

 

[Salthorae]

Mathematically a Fighter can hold up to any other class out there for damage production if you're honest with your numbers.

Out of combat, your background gives you skills and abilities to play around with in other pillars, it doesn't have to come from your class.

Variant Human Fighter with 16 Dex, 14 Con and 14 Cha. Throw in Charlatan Background and take the Prodigy feat with your variant human feat. Skills: Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, one of those with Expertise. Proficiency in Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit, and Thieve's tools.

A build like that is just as good as most other fighters in terms of combat abilities, and has the ability to play in exploration with Perception/Stealth/Thieves' tools, and also the social pillar with deception, insight, disguise & forgery kits.

 

[FrogReaver]

Apparently all the thread was created to do was to claim that fighters are perfectly fine and nothing needs done

 

[Tony Vargas]

Apparently all the thread was created to do was to claim that fighters are perfectly fine and nothing needs done

It was a tough slog, but you have, at this point, acquired a firm grasp of the obvious, yes.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, overall I like where you are going with this. But let's talk in specifics a bit now that you've defined a fighter that you believe holds up out of combat and in combat.

Mathematically a Fighter can hold up to any other class out there for damage production if you're honest with your numbers.

When you talk a fighter without combat feats and allow other classes to take combat feats then that's very debatable.

Out of combat, your background gives you skills and abilities to play around with in other pillars, it doesn't have to come from your class.

All classes get a background - which is why I can't for the life of me understand why this point keeps getting raised if we are trying to have a reasonable conversation.

Variant Human Fighter with 16 Dex, 14 Con and 14 Cha. Throw in Charlatan Background and take the Prodigy feat with your variant human feat. Skills: Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, one of those with Expertise. Proficiency in Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit, and Thieve's tools.

I like the build. However, let's compare this to a crossbow expertise rogue.

Variant Human (Crossbow Expertise) Rogue 16 dex 14 con and 14 cha. Charlatan background. More expertise. More skills. More Damage. After level 2 the rogue gets cunning action for even better out of combat effectiveness.

The rogue in question is doing about 50% more damage than fighter and from range while still being better out of combat than he is!

A build like that is just as good as most other fighters in terms of combat abilities, and has the ability to play in exploration with Perception/Stealth/Thieves' tools, and also the social pillar with deception, insight, disguise & forgery kits.

But that fighter build is still worse at combat and out of combat than many others...

Will it work? Will it be fun? Is it noticeably less effective than alternatives? YES to all three.

 

[FrogReaver]

It was a tough slog, but you have, at this point, acquired a firm grasp of the obvious, yes.

I admit it. Sometimes I'm a bit slow.