When is the skill check made?

[clearstream]

I've seen at least two possible good rulings already in this thread.

1) The check happens at the end of the action and if the guidance duration covers the entire action it works.

2) The check happens at the end of the action and as long as the guidance duration is present for part of the action, it works.

I skipped some posts, so it's entirely possible that there are more good rulings.

I see 3) The check happens at the beginning and guidance works, as another good ruling.

That's a helpful summary I think. So with 2) and 3) players can apply guidance regardless of how long the task takes. That could be okay, unless one is motivated by a desire to limit the range of tasks guidance can apply to.

1) provides a fairly strict limitation, and a DM might have others in mind also. For me, one issue with 1) is that it seems pretty arbitrary about what skills can get guidance in a way that just doesn't really gel with my idea of how divine magic might work. The razor is time it takes to do the task, not nature of task! Well, I suppose one could apply both but... also weird.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Or the thing that doesn't need explicitly stated is that skill checks should tie into an actual moment in the in game fiction.

You see with your definition you are having to assume a lot more that isn't there - whether guidance can effect things that take longer than a minute - when by rule it obviously can - because by rule it depends on when the check occurs - and the only way for that stipulation to make sense is if the check occurs at a defined fictional moment.

Or, it’s obviously true (to me) that the action/task and the buff have to fictionally overlap. That’s it. Just any intentional timing overlap.

“I do X.”

“I give them Guidance.”

That’s it.

 

[iserith]

I've seen at least two possible good rulings already in this thread.

1) The check happens at the end of the action and if the guidance duration covers the entire action it works.

2) The check happens at the end of the action and as long as the guidance duration is present for part of the action, it works.

I skipped some posts, so it's entirely possible that there are more good rulings.

I see 3) The check happens at the beginning and guidance works, as another good ruling.

Another ruling would be that the check doesn't occur at any specific point in the undertaking of the task, since the check doesn't exist in the game world. Therefore, any task that hopes to have the benefit of guidance (or bardic inspiration, etc.) must be started and completed within the bounds of the duration of the spell (or class feature). Only then can the d4 or bardic inspiration die be applied to the ability check, if there is an ability check at all.

 

[Maxperson]

It won't add, agreed, but the question here is whether it would apply? That is, if a task takes 2 minutes, can some number of casts of guidance (might be one, might be a non-overlapping chain) buff it?

The rules don't cover that, which is why it takes a DM ruling as to when the check happens and if the spell needs to cover some or all of the task.

 

[Charlaquin]

Or the thing that doesn't need explicitly stated is that skill checks should tie into an actual moment in the in game fiction.

You see with your definition you are having to assume a lot more that isn't there - whether guidance can effect things that take longer than a minute - when by rule it obviously can - because by rule it depends on when the check occurs - and the only way for that stipulation to make sense is if the check occurs at a defined fictional moment.

...Huh?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The rules don't cover that, which is why it takes a DM ruling as to when the check happens and if the spell needs to cover some or all of the task.

The rules do cover it. The spell has a clear duration, and you can cast it again. Casting it over and over again very clearly works, RAW.

 

[Maxperson]

The rules do cover it. The spell has a clear duration, and you can cast it again. Casting it over and over again very clearly works, RAW.

The rules 100% do not cover it. Why? Because there is no rule for WHEN the roll is made. Is it made at the beginning? The end? During? When during? When the DM decides during? Quote me the rule that says exactly when the check happens, and you will have proven that the rules cover and allow spamming guidance to work(assuming the rule doesn't say at the beginning). Otherwise, you are wrong.

 

[FrogReaver]

The rules 100% do not cover it. Why? Because there is no rule for WHEN the roll is made. Is it made at the beginning? The end? During? When during? When the DM decides during? Quote me the rule that says exactly when the check happens, and you will have proven that the rules cover and allow spamming guidance to work(assuming the rule doesn't say at the beginning). Otherwise, you are wrong.

The premise is that it doesn't matter when the roll is made if you just spam guidance during every interval the roll could be made.

 

[Maxperson]

The premise is that it doesn't matter when the roll is made if you just spam guidance during every interval the roll could be made.

You can't. If I choose "At the beginning," not only must you have cast guidance prior to the check, but later castings are useless. It doesn't matter how long the task takes, the check is over and can no longer be modified. You can only roll for guidance after the roll if the spell is already active.

Your argument allows you to get an infinitely high number as you can just keep casting it forever, even long after the check has been rolled, and long after the activity is over. This is clearly not the case. If the spell is active, you can trigger it as soon as the roll happens. If no spell is active, by the time the caster casts guidance, it's too late to affect the roll. The ability check has been decided.

 

[FrogReaver]

You can't. If I choose "At the beginning," not only must you have cast guidance prior to the check, but later castings are useless. It doesn't matter how long the task takes, the check is over and can no longer be modified. You can only roll for guidance after the roll if the spell is already active.

Not how that's goina work. If the check is made at the beginning and guidance was already up then +1d4 bonus applies. There's no RAW way to get around that.

If the check is made at the end and guidance is up then the +1d4 bonus applies. There's no RAW way to get around that either.

Your argument allows you to get an infinitely high number as you can just keep casting it forever, even long after the check has been rolled, and long after the activity is over. This is clearly not the case. If the spell is active, you can trigger it as soon as the roll happens. If no spell is active, by the time the caster casts guidance, it's too late to affect the roll. The ability check has been decided.

Are you forgetting about the rule where same named sources don't stack?