When is the skill check made?

[iserith]

I don't see anything in the rules which indicates that. If I start building a wall and halfway through 3 master builders show up to give me guidance, my wall is going to be better than if I did it alone. That far through it might only be +1 or +2, rather than the +3 or +4 if they had been present the entire time, but it will be better quality. I see the spell as similar. It gives a bit of a push, so it doesn't matter if it is to an instant skill check or a longer durational one.

A key concept in understanding my position (per a few posts upthread) is that a "skill check" isn't a task.

 

[Maxperson]

A key concept in understanding my position (per a few posts upthread) is that a "skill check" isn't a task.

But it's dependent(with skills) on a task. They are related.

 

[Don Durito]

Wrong thread - ignore

 

[iserith]

But it's dependent(with skills) on a task. They are related.

That there is an ability check means there is a task, but a task does not require an ability check. An ability check isn't a task, just a mechanic used to resolve the outcome of a task when there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't see anything in the rules which indicates that. If I start building a wall and halfway through 3 master builders show up to give me guidance, my wall is going to be better than if I did it alone. That far through it might only be +1 or +2, rather than the +3 or +4 if they had been present the entire time, but it will be better quality. I see the spell as similar. It gives a bit of a push, so it doesn't matter if it is to an instant skill check or a longer durational one.

This is also my understanding of the spell, if I’m reading your intent correctly.

This is also why I’ve no issue with just letting it work in the simplest manner possible, from a reasoning perspective.

 

[Umbran]

Goodness....

Folks... are you actually going to get anywhere with this? I mean, it is two pages of thread already, and you show no sign of coming to a mutually agreeable conclusion.

Maybe you need to accept that you disagree. Not "agree to disagree", just accept it - like the tides. You don't have to agree that tides will come in, but you accept it. You don't try to stop the tides - you learn to work with and around them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Dbl pst

 

[Hriston]

As I state a couple posts above, there is no explicit requirement, but it is implicit in the core resolution mechanic in that tasks and checks are different things. You can have a task without a check, but not a check without a task. But a check is not a task, nor a task a check. Checks don't exist in the game world.

Maybe you need to connect the dots for me then because, while I agree with everything you’re saying here about tasks and checks, I have no idea what you think that proves regarding whether the duration of a casting of guidance must cover the entire time it takes to perform a task for the spell to have the desired effect.

Because the check doesn't exist in the game world, it does not occur at any particular point in time. Therefore, for the outcome of the task to be affected by the spell or class feature, it follows that the task must be started and end within the duration of the spell.

I feel like there’s some underlying assumption you have that I don’t share that leads you to this conclusion, but I have no idea what it is. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s that in the absence of a fictional event with which to associate the rolling and addition of the extra die (I mean, the spell is pretty bare-bones mechanics), you’re associating it with the task as a whole, but I’d much rather hear your thoughts than try to guess what you’re thinking.

Technically, the ability check is not part of Step 2. It's somewhere between Step 2 and Step 3, if there is an ability check at all.

I disagree. If, as you say, there’s an ability check at all, then the DM can’t describe the result of the action until after the check, which places the check back in step 2 along with other inputs into resolution.

The problem is that the "critical moment," if you mean that to be when the ability check is made, does not exist in the context of the game world. If you are saying that the ability check does occur at some point in the fiction, that is a house rule because there is nothing to my knowledge that says when an ability check happens when a task is being undertaken. It happens at the table, not in the game world. The spell or class feature happens in the game world and improves the chances of success in the task by affecting the dice at the table. To square this all up and to avoid conflating tasks and checks, the task must be started and completed within the duration of the spell or class feature.

By “critical moment”, I don’t mean when the ability check is made. I mean a critical moment in the fiction, which does exist in the game-world. I’m not saying the ability check occurs at any point in the fiction, or that it occurs in the fiction at all. What I’m saying is that the question of the timing of the check doesn’t matter. What matters is that the d4 is rolled and added at the table while the state of the fiction agreed upon by the people at the table is that guidance was cast less than a minute ago in the fiction.

 

[Maxperson]

That there is an ability check means there is a task, but a task does not require an ability check. An ability check isn't a task, just a mechanic used to resolve the outcome of a task when there's an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure.

Those tasks that are auto success or failure and have no ability check are not germane to this discussion. Only those tasks which do require an ability check will be rolled for, and those are the ones that Guidance will be applied to.

 

[iserith]

Maybe you need to connect the dots for me then because, while I agree with everything you’re saying here about tasks and checks, I have no idea what you think that proves regarding whether the duration of a casting of guidance must cover the entire time it takes to perform a task for the spell to have the desired effect.

I feel like there’s some underlying assumption you have that I don’t share that leads you to this conclusion, but I have no idea what it is. If I had to guess, I’d say it’s that in the absence of a fictional event with which to associate the rolling and addition of the extra die (I mean, the spell is pretty bare-bones mechanics), you’re associating it with the task as a whole, but I’d much rather hear your thoughts than try to guess what you’re thinking.

I think you're on the right track here.

I disagree. If, as you say, there’s an ability check at all, then the DM can’t describe the result of the action until after the check, which places the check back in step 2 along with other inputs into resolution.

Even if there is a check, it's still neither Step 2 nor Step 3, technically.

By “critical moment”, I don’t mean when the ability check is made. I mean a critical moment in the fiction, which does exist in the game-world. I’m not saying the ability check occurs at any point in the fiction, or that it occurs in the fiction at all. What I’m saying is that the question of the timing of the check doesn’t matter. What matters is that the d4 is rolled and added at the table while the state of the fiction agreed upon by the people at the table is that guidance was cast less than a minute ago in the fiction.

If the task lasts less than a minute, then I'm with you. If it lasts more than a minute, guidance won't help. If it lasts more than 10 minutes, bardic inspiration won't help.