D&D 5E Variant 5e?

[DND_Reborn]

My thought is that with access to more feats and all the subclasses (we have 92+ now) there would be enough to get the flavor of multiclassing. Please note, I am talking about 5e as it is now and making the minor changes suggested.

I figured that was your thought process, but IMO most of the archetypes really aren't that good. I can't tell you how many times a player is making a character, looking over the archetypes when the times comes, and not thrilled about any of the choices. More often than not it becomes a which is the least bad choice.

Simple "multiclass-like" subclasses would be fine. Things like Arcane Trickster, but without the limit on what types of spells they choose (same with Eldritch Knight).

 

[Charlaquin]

Well I am trying to make the game harder. This would be a variant 5e for those you think the base game is to easy (i'm looking at you @CapnZapp )


That is a worry. I just think non-magic healing is to easy (something @Saelorn always reminds me), and this was a simply way to fix that. It will be a problem for some. But again, this isn't intended to replace 5e, but a way to use the existing game in a different way.

That is basically what I am going for in this variant: Hard mode (as noted in one of the other threads I linked too). I am interested in the idea of how we can get a different experience from the same game with minimal rule changes. I would be interested in examples with a different goal as well.

I’m all for tweaking the parameters of 5e to make it more challenging, I just don’t really think nerfing player HP and rest values really accomplishes that. D&D is fundamentally a game of resource management. If you want to up the difficulty, you need to spread the player’s resources thinner, rather than depleting them faster. And increasing the amount of in-game it takes to replenish their resources doesn’t accomplish that because players will always spend whatever amount of in-game time they need to fully replenish their resources once they are depleted, which will always take little to no table time. What you need to do instead is restrict the conditions under which resources can be replenished.

In 5e as written, hit points are an encounter resource and hit dice are an adventuring day resource. To up the difficulty, make HP an adventuring day resource and make HD an adventure resource. To accomplish this, limit players to one short rest per day (you could make it take 8 hours if you want, the amount of time is inconsequential, it’s the daily limit that matters) and make long rests take downtime (again, how much downtime doesn’t really matter, the important thing is that they have to be in the safety of town to take one.) Where decreasing HP just makes the players have to hit the rest button sooner, limiting the conditions under which they can hit the rest button will force them to be more conservative with their resource expenditure, thereby making the attrition game harder.

I suppose if you wanted to really go whole-ham, you could make HP an adventure resource and make HD a campaign resource, but that might be a bit too brutal even for the hardest of hardcore.

 

[Wiseblood]

Exhaustion is a tough one to get rid off, and the HP is a real factor IMO. With less HP you go done more, and pretty soon you have disadvantage on everything and your moving at half speed.


How would this affect martials more? Are you assuming they typically have higher CON scores?

Agreed, I feel the less HP helps with that.

Exhaustion definitely is a tough one to get rid of. If you get knocked down you kinda proved your HP let you down already.

Martial classes are more likely to put a score in constitution that is higher than 14. In addition to that they are the ones most frequently attacked. High AC and sometimes resistance are the mitigators. The magic using classes are targeted less.

 

[dave2008]

Which part of the game specifically do you want to "adjust the feel of?" Most of your proposed changes make failure more likely and consequential. In play this disincentives combat more while encouraging "weird" builds instead of improving to-hits and ancillary properties like HP and skills. It feels like a game where the PCs spend a lot more time considering and planning. Non-combat play zooms into focus as players avoid fights and have longer recovery periods.

That sounds about right for what I am looking for.

But I am interested in the concept really. How can we make minimal changes to 5e with the biggest impact in how it plays. Simple sets of rules or modifications that change how we play, but still let us use the existing material.

 

[Staffan]

• Death saves: each time you make a death save you gain one level of exhaustion.

This is, as has been pointed out, extremely brutal. You could instead steal an idea from Pathfinder 2: when you recover from being at death's door, you gain a level of Wounded. This has no immediate effect, but if you start dying again, every level of Wounded counts as an immediate failed death save (the rules implementation in PF2 is slightly different, but the same basic idea: bouncing up and down reduces your margin for error).

You lose Wounded when you receive medical attention (a successful Medicine check taking 10 minutes - in PF2 this also heals you some, taking the place of 5e's short rest) or if your hit points become full and you rest for 10 minutes.

 

[Morrus]

You need to start by identify what "feel" you're aiming for? Marvel Cinematic? Conan Gritty? Game of Thrones? Masters of the Universe?

Adventures in Middle earth does a good job of a "low magic" feel D&D. Might not be what you're after though.

 

[dave2008]

I’m all for tweaking the parameters of 5e to make it more challenging, I just don’t really think nerfing player HP and rest values really accomplishes that.

I am not sure either, but I think it would for my group.

In 5e as written, hit points are an encounter resource and hit dice are an adventuring day resource. To up the difficulty, make HP an adventuring day resource and make HD an adventure resource. To accomplish this, limit players to one short rest per day (you could make it take 8 hours if you want, the amount of time is inconsequential, it’s the daily limit that matters) and make long rests take downtime (again, how much downtime doesn’t really matter, the important thing is that they have to be in the safety of town to take one.) Where decreasing HP just makes the players have to hit the rest button sooner, limiting the conditions under which they can hit the rest button will force them to be more conservative with their resource expenditure, thereby making the attrition game harder.

That doesn't sound like the type of game I want to play, but it might work for you.

 

[dave2008]

This is, as has been pointed out, extremely brutal. You could instead steal an idea from Pathfinder 2: when you recover from being at death's door, you gain a level of Wounded. This has no immediate effect, but if you start dying again, every level of Wounded counts as an immediate failed death save (the rules implementation in PF2 is slightly different, but the same basic idea: bouncing up and down reduces your margin for error).

You lose Wounded when you receive medical attention (a successful Medicine check taking 10 minutes - in PF2 this also heals you some, taking the place of 5e's short rest) or if your hit points become full and you rest for 10 minutes.

I noted that idea myself in the thread I linked to in the OP. I am looking for brutal in this case. So mission acomplished I guess. However, I really want to get a discussion on other peoples idea of small changes to make the game feel different.

 

[dave2008]

You need to start by identify what "feel" you're aiming for? Marvel Cinematic? Conan Gritty? Game of Thrones? Masters of the Universe?

Adventures in Middle earth does a good job of a "low magic" feel D&D. Might not be what you're after though.

My example was more customization + more brutal. But I am really interested in the concept of small changes to make to 5e that make big changes to the theme of the game. Less a question about what I have done and more about what you would do to capture whatever theme base 5e doesn't do well in your opinion.

 

[Morrus]

My example was more customization + more brutal. But I am really interested in the concept of small changes to make to 5e that make big changes to the theme of the game. Less a question about what I have done and more about what you would do to capture whatever theme base 5e doesn't do well in your opinion.

I just play the game designed to do that thing. Why hack Monopoly to mimic Cluedo when you have Cluedo?

D&D does D&D better than any other game, and if you want to play in the D&D genre, D&D is utterly your best choice.

You can put it in an ill-fitting dress or clumsily chop it into a different shape, and it will kinda do the job, but why? That's not what it's designed to do. People have gone out of their way to construct those games you seek from the ground up, and they're amazing.